第16章

wassaying，willbeforbiddentointer—marry。This，however，isnottobeunderstoodasanabsoluteprohibitionofthemarriageofbrothersandsisters；ifthelotfavoursthem，andtheyreceivethesanctionofthePythianoracle，thelawwillallowthem。

Quiteright，hereplied。

Suchisthescheme，Glaucon，accordingtowhichtheguardiansofourStatearetohavetheirwivesandfamiliesincommon。Andnowyouwouldhavetheargumentshowthatthiscommunityisconsistentwiththerestofourpolity，andalsothatnothingcanbebetter——wouldyounot？

Yes，certainly。

ShallwetrytofindacommonbasisbyaskingofourselveswhatoughttobethechiefaimofthelegislatorinmakinglawsandintheorganizationofaState，——whatisthegreatestIgood，andwhatisthegreatestevil，andthenconsiderwhetherourpreviousdescriptionhasthestampofthegoodoroftheevil？

Byallmeans。

Cantherebeanygreaterevilthandiscordanddistractionandpluralitywhereunityoughttoreign？oranygreatergoodthanthebondofunity？

Therecannot。

Andthereisunitywherethereiscommunityofpleasuresandpains——whereallthecitizensaregladorgrievedonthesameoccasionsofjoyandsorrow？

Nodoubt。

Yes；andwherethereisnocommonbutonlyprivatefeelingaStateisdisorganized——whenyouhaveonehalfoftheworldtriumphingandtheotherplungedingriefatthesameeventshappeningtothecityorthecitizens？

Certainly。

Suchdifferencescommonlyoriginateinadisagreementabouttheuseoftheterms’mine’and’notmine，’’his’and’nothis。’

Exactlyso。

Andisnotthatthebest—orderedStateinwhichthegreatestnumberofpersonsapplytheterms’mine’and’notmine’inthesamewaytothesamething？

Quitetrue。

Orthatagainwhichmostnearlyapproachestotheconditionoftheindividual——asinthebody，whenbutafingerofoneofusishurt，thewholeframe，drawntowardsthesoulasacenterandformingonekingdomundertherulingpowertherein，feelsthehurtandsympathizesalltogetherwiththepartaffected，andwesaythatthemanhasapaininhisfinger；andthesameexpressionisusedaboutanyotherpartofthebody，whichhasasensationofpainatsufferingorofpleasureatthealleviationofsuffering。

Verytrue，hereplied；andIagreewithyouthatinthebest—orderedStatethereisthenearestapproachtothiscommonfeelingwhichyoudescribe。

Thenwhenanyoneofthecitizensexperiencesanygoodorevil，thewholeStatewillmakehiscasetheirown，andwilleitherrejoiceorsorrowwithhim？

Yes，hesaid，thatiswhatwillhappeninawell—orderedState。

Itwillnowbetime，Isaid，forustoreturntoourStateandseewhetherthisorsomeotherformismostinaccordancewiththesefundamentalprinciples。

Verygood。

OurStatelikeeveryotherhasrulersandsubjects？

True。

Allofwhomwillcalloneanothercitizens？

Ofcourse。

ButistherenotanothernamewhichpeoplegivetotheirrulersinotherStates？

Generallytheycallthemmasters，butindemocraticStatestheysimplycallthemrulers。

AndinourStatewhatothernamebesidesthatofcitizensdothepeoplegivetherulers？

Theyarecalledsavioursandhelpers，hereplied。

Andwhatdotherulerscallthepeople？

Theirmaintainersandfoster—fathers。

AndwhatdotheycalltheminotherStates？

Slaves。

AndwhatdotherulerscalloneanotherinotherStates？

Fellow—rulers。

Andwhatinours？

Fellow—guardians。

DidyoueverknowanexampleinanyotherStateofarulerwhowouldspeakofoneofhiscolleaguesashisfriendandofanotherasnotbeinghisfriend？

Yes，veryoften。

Andthefriendheregardsanddescribesasoneinwhomhehasaninterest，andtheotherasastrangerinwhomhehasnointerest？

Exactly。

Butwouldanyofyourguardiansthinkorspeakofanyotherguardianasastranger？

Certainlyhewouldnot；foreveryonewhomtheymeetwillberegardedbythemeitherasabrotherorsister，orfatherormother，orsonordaughter，orasthechildorparentofthosewhoarethusconnectedwithhim。

Capital，Isaid；butletmeaskyouoncemore：Shalltheybeafamilyinnameonly；orshalltheyinalltheiractionsbetruetothename？Forexample，intheuseoftheword’father，’wouldthecareofafatherbeimpliedandthefilialreverenceanddutyandobediencetohimwhichthelawcommands；andistheviolatorofthesedutiestoberegardedasanimpiousandunrighteouspersonwhoisnotlikelytoreceivemuchgoodeitheratthehandsofGodorofman？

Arethesetobeornottobethestrainswhichthechildrenwillhearrepeatedintheirearsbyallthecitizensaboutthosewhoareintimatedtothemtobetheirparentsandtherestoftheirkinsfolk？

These，hesaid，andnoneother；forwhatcanbemoreridiculousthanforthemtoutterthenamesoffamilytieswiththelipsonlyandnottoactinthespiritofthem？

Theninourcitythelanguageofharmonyandconcordwillbemoreoftenbeardthaninanyother。AsIwasdescribingbefore，whenanyoneiswellorill，theuniversalwordwillbewithmeitiswell’

or’itisill。’

Mosttrue。

Andagreeablytothismodeofthinkingandspeaking，werewenotsayingthattheywillhavetheirpleasuresandpainsincommon？

Yes，andsotheywill。

Andtheywillhaveacommoninterestinthesamethingwhichtheywillalikecall’myown，’andhavingthiscommoninteresttheywillhaveacommonfeelingofpleasureandpain？

Yes，farmoresothaninotherStates。

Andthereasonofthis，overandabovethegeneralconstitutionoftheState，willbethattheguardianswillhaveacommunityofwomenandchildren？

Thatwillbethechiefreason。

Andthisunityoffeelingweadmittedtobethegreatestgood，aswasimpliedinourowncomparisonofawell—orderedStatetotherelationofthebodyandthemembers，whenaffectedbypleasureorpain？

Thatweacknowledged，andveryrightly。

ThenthecommunityofwivesandchildrenamongourcitizensisclearlythesourceofthegreatestgoodtotheState？

Certainly。

Andthisagreeswiththeotherprinciplewhichwewereaffirming，——thattheguardianswerenottohavehousesorlandsoranyotherproperty；theirpaywastobetheirfood，whichtheyweretoreceivefromtheothercitizens，andtheyweretohavenoprivateexpenses；

forweintendedthemtopreservetheirtruecharacterofguardians。

Right，hereplied。

Boththecommunityofpropertyandthecommunityoffamilies，asI

amsaying，tendtomakethemmoretrulyguardians；theywillnottearthecityinpiecesbydifferingabout’mine’and’notmine；’eachmandragginganyacquisitionwhichhehasmadeintoaseparatehouseofhisown，wherehehasaseparatewifeandchildrenandprivatepleasuresandpains；butallwillbeaffectedasfarasmaybebythesamepleasuresandpainsbecausetheyareallofoneopinionaboutwhatisnearanddeartothem，andthereforetheyalltendtowardsacommonend。

Certainly，hereplied。

Andastheyhavenothingbuttheirpersonswhichtheycancalltheirown，suitsandcomplaintswillhavenoexistenceamongthem；theywillbedeliveredfromallthosequarrelsofwhichmoneyorchildrenorrelationsaretheoccasion。

Ofcoursetheywill。

Neitherwilltrialsforassaultorinsulteverbelikelytooccuramongthem。Forthatequalsshoulddefendthemselvesagainstequalsweshallmaintaintobehonourableandright；weshallmaketheprotectionofthepersonamatterofnecessity。

Thatisgood，hesaid。

Yes；andthereisafurthergoodinthelaw；viz。thatifamanhasaquarrelwithanotherhewillsatisfyhisresentmentthenandthere，andnotproceedtomoredangerouslengths。

Certainly。

Totheeldershallbeassignedthedutyofrulingandchastisingtheyounger。

Clearly。

Norcantherebeadoubtthattheyoungerwillnotstrikeordoanyotherviolencetoanelder，unlessthemagistratescommandhim；

norwillheslighthiminanyway。Fortherearetwoguardians，shameandfear，mightytopreventhim：shame，whichmakesmenrefrainfromlayinghandsonthosewhoaretothemintherelationofparents；fear，thattheinjuredonewillbesuccouredbytheotherswhoarehisbrothers，sons，onewifathers。

Thatistrue，hereplied。

Thenineverywaythelawswillhelpthecitizenstokeepthepeacewithoneanother？

Yes，therewillbenowantofpeace。

Andastheguardianswillneverquarrelamongthemselvestherewillbenodangeroftherestofthecitybeingdividedeitheragainstthemoragainstoneanother。

Nonewhatever。

Ihardlylikeeventomentionthelittlemeannessesofwhichtheywillberid，fortheyarebeneathnotice：such，forexample，astheflatteryoftherichbythepoor，andallthepainsandpangswhichmenexperienceinbringingupafamily，andinfindingmoneytobuynecessariesfortheirhousehold，borrowingandthenrepudiating，gettinghowtheycan，andgivingthemoneyintothehandsofwomenandslavestokeep——themanyevilsofsomanykindswhichpeoplesufferinthiswayaremeanenoughandobviousenough，andnotworthspeakingof。

Yes，hesaid，amanhasnoneedofeyesinordertoperceivethat。

Andfromalltheseevilstheywillbedelivered，andtheirlifewillbeblessedasthelifeofOlympicvictorsandyetmoreblessed。

Howso？

TheOlympicvictor，Isaid，isdeemedhappyinreceivingapartonlyoftheblessednesswhichissecuredtoourcitizens，whohavewonamoregloriousvictoryandhaveamorecompletemaintenanceatthepubliccost。ForthevictorywhichtheyhavewonisthesalvationofthewholeState；andthecrownwithwhichtheyandtheirchildrenarecrownedisthefulnessofallthatlifeneeds；theyreceiverewardsfromthehandsoftheircountrywhileliving，andafterdeathhaveanhonourableburial。

Yes，hesaid，andgloriousrewardstheyare。

Doyouremember，Isaid，howinthecourseofthepreviousdiscussionsomeonewhoshallbenamelessaccusedusofmakingourguardiansunhappy——theyhadnothingandmighthavepossessedallthings—towhomwerepliedthat，ifanoccasionoffered，wemightperhapshereafterconsiderthisquestion，butthat，asatpresentadvised，wewouldmakeourguardianstrulyguardians，andthatwewerefashioningtheStatewithaviewtothegreatesthappiness，notofanyparticularclass，butofthewhole？

Yes，Iremember。

Andwhatdoyousay，nowthatthelifeofourprotectorsismadeouttobefarbetterandnoblerthanthatofOlympicvictors——isthelifeofshoemakers，oranyotherartisans，orofhusbandmen，tobecomparedwithit？

Certainlynot。

AtthesametimeIoughtheretorepeatwhatIhavesaidelsewhere，thatifanyofourguardiansshalltrytobehappyinsuchamannerthathewillceasetobeaguardian，andisnotcontentwiththissafeandharmoniouslife，which，inourjudgment，isofalllivesthebest，butinfatuatedbysomeyouthfulconceitofhappinesswhichgetsupintohisheadshallseektoappropriatethewholeStatetohimself，thenhewillhavetolearnhowwiselyHesiodspoke，whenhesaid，’halfismorethanthewhole。’

Ifheweretoconsultme，Ishouldsaytohim：Staywhereyouare，whenyouhavetheofferofsuchalife。

Youagreethen，Isaid，thatmenandwomenaretohaveacommonwayoflifesuchaswehavedescribed——commoneducation，commonchildren；andtheyaretowatchoverthecitizensincommonwhetherabidinginthecityorgoingouttowar；theyaretokeepwatchtogether，andtohunttogetherlikedogs；andalwaysandinallthings，asfarastheyareable，womenaretosharewiththemen？

Andinsodoingtheywilldowhatisbest，andwillnotviolate，butpreservethenaturalrelationofthesexes。

Iagreewithyou，hereplied。

Theenquiry，Isaid，hasyettobemade，whethersuchacommunitybefoundpossible——asamongotheranimals，soalsoamongmen——andifpossible，inwhatwaypossible？

YouhaveanticipatedthequestionwhichIwasabouttosuggest。

Thereisnodifficulty，Isaid，inseeinghowwarwillbecarriedonbythem。

How？

Why，ofcoursetheywillgoonexpeditionstogether；andwilltakewiththemanyoftheirchildrenwhoarestrongenough，that，afterthemanneroftheartisan’schild，theymaylookonattheworkwhichtheywillhavetodowhentheyaregrownup；andbesideslookingontheywillhavetohelpandbeofuseinwar，andtowaitupontheirfathersandmothers。Didyouneverobserveintheartshowthepotters’boyslookonandhelp，longbeforetheytouchthewheel？

Yes，Ihave。

Andshallpottersbemorecarefulineducatingtheirchildrenandingivingthemtheopportunityofseeingandpractisingtheirdutiesthanourguardianswillbe？

Theideaisridiculous，hesaid。

Thereisalsotheeffectontheparents，withwhom，aswithotheranimals，thepresenceoftheiryoungoneswillbethegreatestincentivetovalour。

Thatisquitetrue，Socrates；andyetiftheyaredefeated，whichmayoftenhappeninwar，howgreatthedangeris！thechildrenwillbelostaswellastheirparents，andtheStatewillneverrecover。

True，Isaid；butwouldyouneverallowthemtorunanyrisk？

Iamfarfromsayingthat。

Well，butiftheyareevertorunariskshouldtheynotdosoonsomeoccasionwhen，iftheyescapedisaster，theywillbethebetterforit？

Clearly。

Whetherthefuturesoldiersdoordonotseewarinthedaysoftheiryouthisaveryimportantmatter，forthesakeofwhichsomeriskmayfairlybeincurred。

Yes，veryimportant。

Thisthenmustbeourfirststep，——tomakeourchildrenspectatorsofwar；butwemustalsocontrivethattheyshallbesecuredagainstdanger；thenallwillbewell。

True。

Theirparentsmaybesupposednottobeblindtotherisksofwar，buttoknow，asfarashumanforesightcan，whatexpeditionsaresafeandwhatdangerous？

Thatmaybeassumed。

Andtheywilltakethemonthesafeexpeditionsandbecautiousaboutthedangerousones？

True。

Andtheywillplacethemunderthecommandofexperiencedveteranswhowillbetheirleadersandteachers？

Veryproperly。

Still，thedangersofwarcannotbealwaysforeseen；thereisagooddealofchanceaboutthem？

True。

Thenagainstsuchchancesthechildrenmustbeatoncefurnishedwithwings，inorderthatinthehourofneedtheymayflyawayandescape。

Whatdoyoumean？hesaid。

Imeanthatwemustmountthemonhorsesintheirearliestyouth，andwhentheyhavelearnttoride，takethemonhorsebacktoseewar：thehorsesmustbespiritedandwarlike，butthemosttractableandyettheswiftestthatcanbehad。Inthiswaytheywillgetanexcellentviewofwhatishereaftertobetheirownbusiness；andifthereisdangertheyhaveonlytofollowtheirelderleadersandescape。

Ibelievethatyouareright，hesaid。

Next，astowar；whataretobetherelationsofyoursoldierstooneanotherandtotheirenemies？Ishouldbeinclinedtoproposethatthesoldierwholeaveshisrankorthrowsawayhisarms，orisguiltyofanyotheractofcowardice，shouldbedegradedintotherankofahusbandmanorartisan。Whatdoyouthink？

Byallmeans，Ishouldsay。

Andhewhoallowshimselftobetakenprisonermayaswellbemadeapresentoftohisenemies；heistheirlawfulprey，andletthemdowhattheylikewithhim。

Certainly。

Buttheherowhohasdistinguishedhimself，whatshallbedonetohim？Inthefirstplace，heshallreceivehonourinthearmyfromhisyouthfulcomrades；everyoneoftheminsuccessionshallcrownhim。Whatdoyousay？

Iapprove。

Andwhatdoyousaytohisreceivingtherighthandoffellowship？

Tothattoo，Iagree。

Butyouwillhardlyagreetomynextproposal。

Whatisyourproposal？

Thatheshouldkissandbekissedbythem。

Mostcertainly，andIshouldbedisposedtogofurther，andsay：Letnoonewhomhehasamindtokissrefusetobekissedbyhimwhiletheexpeditionlasts。Sothatiftherebealoverinthearmy，whetherhislovebeyouthormaiden，hemaybemoreeagertowintheprizeofvalour。

Capital，Isaid。Thatthebravemanistohavemorewivesthanothershasbeenalreadydetermined：andheistohavefirstchoicesinsuchmattersmorethanothers，inorderthathemayhaveasmanychildrenaspossible？

Agreed。

Again，thereisanothermannerinwhich，accordingtoHomer，braveyouthsshouldbehonoured；forhetellshowAjax，afterhehaddistinguishedhimselfinbattle，wasrewardedwithlongchines，whichseemstobeacomplimentappropriatetoaherointheflowerofhisage，beingnotonlyatributeofhonourbutalsoaverystrengtheningthing。

Mosttrue，hesaid。

Theninthis，Isaid，Homershallbeourteacher；andwetoo，atsacrificesandonthelikeoccasions，willhonourthebraveaccordingtothemeasureoftheirvalour，whethermenorwomen，withhymnsandthoseotherdistinctionswhichwewerementioning；alsowithseatsofprecedence，andmeatsandfullcups；

andinhonouringthem，weshallbeatthesametimetrainingthem。

That，hereplied，isexcellent。

Yes，Isaid；andwhenamandiesgloriouslyinwarshallwenotsay，inthefirstplace，thatheisofthegoldenrace？

Tobesure。

Nay，havewenottheauthorityofHesiodforaffirmingthatwhentheyaredeadTheyareholyangelsupontheearth，authorsofgood，avertersofevil，theguardiansofspeech—giftedmen？

Yes；andweaccepthisauthority。

Wemustlearnofthegodhowwearetoorderthesepultureofdivineandheroicpersonages，andwhatistobetheirspecialdistinctionandwemustdoashebids？

Byallmeans。

Andinagestocomewewillreverencethemandknee。beforetheirsepulchresasatthegravesofheroes。Andnotonlytheybutanywhoaredeemedpre—eminentlygood，whethertheydiefromage，orinanyotherway，shallbeadmittedtothesamehonours。

Thatisveryright，hesaid。

Next，howshalloursoldierstreattheirenemies？Whataboutthis？

Inwhatrespectdoyoumean？

Firstofall，inregardtoslavery？DoyouthinkitrightthatHellenesshouldenslaveHellenicStates，orallowotherstoenslavethem，iftheycanhelp？Shouldnottheircustombetosparethem，consideringthedangerwhichthereisthatthewholeracemayonedayfallundertheyokeofthebarbarians？

Tosparethemisinfinitelybetter。

ThennoHelleneshouldbeownedbythemasaslave；thatisarulewhichtheywillobserveandadvisetheotherHellenestoobserve。

Certainly，hesaid；theywillinthiswaybeunitedagainstthebarbariansandwillkeeptheirhandsoffoneanother。

Nextastotheslain；oughttheconquerors，Isaid，totakeanythingbuttheirarmour？Doesnotthepracticeofdespoilinganenemyaffordanexcusefornotfacingthebattle？Cowardsskulkaboutthedead，pretendingthattheyarefulfillingaduty，andmanyanarmybeforenowhasbeenlostfromthisloveofplunder。

Verytrue。