第17章

Andistherenotilliberalityandavariceinrobbingacorpse，andalsoadegreeofmeannessandwomanishnessinmakinganenemyofthedeadbodywhentherealenemyhasflownawayandleftonlyhisfightinggearbehindhim，——isnotthisratherlikeadogwhocannotgetathisassailant，quarrellingwiththestoneswhichstrikehiminstead？

Verylikeadog，hesaid。

Thenwemustabstainfromspoilingthedeadorhinderingtheirburial？

Yes，hereplied，wemostcertainlymust。

Neithershallweofferuparmsatthetemplesofthegods，leastofallthearmsofHellenes，ifwecaretomaintaingoodfeelingwithotherHellenes；and，indeed，wehavereasontofearthattheofferingofspoilstakenfromkinsmenmaybeapollutionunlesscommandedbythegodhimself？

Verytrue。

Again，astothedevastationofHellenicterritoryortheburningofhouses，whatistobethepractice？

MayIhavethepleasure，hesaid，ofhearingyouropinion？

Bothshouldbeforbidden，inmyjudgment；Iwouldtaketheannualproduceandnomore。ShallItellyouwhy？

Praydo。

Why，yousee，thereisadifferenceinthenames’discord’and’war，’andIimaginethatthereisalsoadifferenceintheirnatures；

theoneisexpressiveofwhatisinternalanddomestic，theotherofwhatisexternalandforeign；andthefirstofthetwoistermeddiscord，andonlythesecond，war。

Thatisaveryproperdistinction，hereplied。

AndmayInotobservewithequalproprietythattheHellenicraceisallunitedtogetherbytiesofbloodandfriendship，andalienandstrangetothebarbarians？

Verygood，hesaid。

AndthereforewhenHellenesfightwithbarbariansandbarbarianswithHellenes，theywillbedescribedbyusasbeingatwarwhentheyfight，andbynatureenemies，andthiskindofantagonismshouldbecalledwar；butwhenHellenesfightwithoneanotherweshallsaythatHellasistheninastateofdisorderanddiscord，theybeingbynaturefriendsandsuchenmityistobecalleddiscord。

Iagree。

Considerthen，Isaid，whenthatwhichwehaveacknowledgedtobediscordoccurs，andacityisdivided，ifbothpartiesdestroythelandsandburnthehousesofoneanother，howwickeddoesthestrifeappear！Notrueloverofhiscountrywouldbringhimselftotearinpieceshisownnurseandmother：Theremightbereasonintheconquerordeprivingtheconqueredoftheirharvest，butstilltheywouldhavetheideaofpeaceintheirheartsandwouldnotmeantogoonfightingforever。

Yes，hesaid，thatisabettertemperthantheother。

Andwillnotthecity，whichyouarefounding，beanHelleniccity？

Itoughttobe，hereplied。

Thenwillnotthecitizensbegoodandcivilized？

Yes，verycivilized。

AndwilltheynotbeloversofHellas，andthinkofHellasastheirownland，andshareinthecommontemples？

Mostcertainly。

Andanydifferencewhicharisesamongthemwillberegardedbythemasdiscordonly——aquarrelamongfriends，whichisnottobecalledawar？

Certainlynot。

Thentheywillquarrelasthosewhointendsomedaytobereconciled？Certainly。

Theywillusefriendlycorrection，butwillnotenslaveordestroytheiropponents；theywillbecorrectors，notenemies？

Justso。

AndastheyareHellenesthemselvestheywillnotdevastateHellas，norwilltheyburnhouses，notevensupposethatthewholepopulationofacity——men，women，andchildren——areequallytheirenemies，fortheyknowthattheguiltofwarisalwaysconfinedtoafewpersonsandthatthemanyaretheirfriends。Andforallthesereasonstheywillbeunwillingtowastetheirlandsandrazetheirhouses；theirenmitytothemwillonlylastuntilthemanyinnocentsufferershavecompelledtheguiltyfewtogivesatisfaction？

Iagree，hesaid，thatourcitizensshouldthusdealwiththeirHellenicenemies；andwithbarbariansastheHellenesnowdealwithoneanother。

Thenletusenactthislawalsoforourguardians：—thattheyareneithertodevastatethelandsofHellenesnortoburntheirhouses。

Agreed；andwemayagreealsointhinkingthatthese，allourpreviousenactments，areverygood。

ButstillImustsay，Socrates，thatifyouareallowedtogooninthiswayyouwillentirelyforgettheotherquestionwhichatthecommencementofthisdiscussionyouthrustaside：——Issuchanorderofthingspossible，andhow，ifatall？ForIamquitereadytoacknowledgethattheplanwhichyoupropose，ifonlyfeasible，woulddoallsortsofgoodtotheState。Iwilladd，whatyouhaveomitted，thatyourcitizenswillbethebravestofwarriors，andwillneverleavetheirranks，fortheywillallknowoneanother，andeachwillcalltheotherfather，brother，son；andifyousupposethewomentojointheirarmies，whetherinthesamerankorintherear，eitherasaterrortotheenemy，orasauxiliariesincaseofneed，Iknowthattheywillthenbeabsolutelyinvincible；andtherearemanydomesticticadvantageswhichmightalsobementionedandwhichIalsofullyacknowledge：but，asIadmitalltheseadvantagesandasmanymoreasyouplease，ifonlythisStateofyoursweretocomeintoexistence，weneedsaynomoreaboutthem；

assumingthentheexistenceoftheState，letusnowturntothequestionofpossibilityandwaysandmeans——therestmaybeleft。

IfIloiterforamoment，youinstantlymakearaiduponme，Isaid，andhavenomercy；Ihavehardlyescapedthefirstandsecondwaves，andyouseemnottobeawarethatyouarenowbringinguponmethethird，whichisthegreatestandheaviest。Whenyouhaveseenandheardthethirdwave，IthinkyoubemoreconsiderateandwillacknowledgethatsomefearandhesitationwasnaturalrespectingaproposalsoextraordinaryasthatwhichIhavenowtostateandinvestigate。

Themoreappealsofthissortwhichyoumake，hesaid，themoredeterminedarewethatyoushalltellushowsuchaStateispossible：

speakoutandatonce。

Letmebeginbyremindingyouthatwefoundourwayhitherinthesearchafterjusticeandinjustice。

True，hereplied；butwhatofthat？

Iwasonlygoingtoaskwhether，ifwehavediscoveredthem，wearetorequirethatthejustmanshouldinnothingfailofabsolutejustice；ormaywebesatisfiedwithanapproximation，andtheattainmentinhimofahigherdegreeofjusticethanistobefoundinothermen？

Theapproximationwillbeenough。

Weareenquiringintothenatureofabsolutejusticeandintothecharacteroftheperfectlyjust，andintoinjusticeandtheperfectlyunjust，thatwemighthaveanideal。Weweretolookattheseinorderthatwemightjudgeofourownhappinessandunhappinessaccordingtothestandardwhichtheyexhibitedandthedegreeinwhichweresembledthem，butnotwithanyviewofshowingthattheycouldexistinfact。

True，hesaid。

Wouldapainterbeanytheworsebecause，afterhavingdelineatedwithconsummateartanidealofaperfectlybeautifulman，hewasunabletoshowthatanysuchmancouldeverhaveexisted？

Hewouldbenonetheworse。

Well，andwerewenotcreatinganidealofaperfectState？

Tobesure。

Andisourtheoryaworsetheorybecauseweareunabletoprovethepossibilityofacitybeingorderedinthemannerdescribed？

Surelynot，hereplied。

Thatisthetruth，Isaid。Butif，atyourrequest，Iamtotryandshowhowandunderwhatconditionsthepossibilityishighest，I

mustaskyou，havingthisinview，torepeatyourformeradmissions。

Whatadmissions？

Iwanttoknowwhetheridealsareeverfullyrealisedinlanguage？

Doesnotthewordexpressmorethanthefact，andmustnottheactual，whateveramanmaythink，always，inthenatureofthings，fallshortofthetruth？Whatdoyousay？

Iagree。

ThenyoumustnotinsistonmyprovingthattheactualStatewillineveryrespectcoincidewiththeideal：ifweareonlyabletodiscoverhowacitymaybegovernednearlyasweproposed，youwilladmitthatwehavediscoveredthepossibilitywhichyoudemand；andwillbecontented。IamsurethatIshouldbecontented——willnotyou？

Yes，Iwill。

LetmenextendeavourtoshowwhatisthatfaultinStateswhichisthecauseoftheirpresentmaladministration，andwhatistheleastchangewhichwillenableaStatetopassintothetruerform；andletthechange，ifpossible，beofonethingonly，orifnot，oftwo；atanyrate，letthechangesbeasfewandslightaspossible。

Certainly，hereplied。

Ithink，Isaid，thattheremightbeareformoftheStateifonlyonechangeweremade，whichisnotaslightoreasythoughstillapossibleone。

Whatisit？hesaid。

Nowthen，Isaid，IgotomeetthatwhichIlikentothegreatestofthewaves；yetshallthewordbespoken，eventhoughthewavebreakanddrownmeinlaughteranddishonour；anddoyoumarkmywords。

Proceed。

Isaid：Untilphilosophersarekings，orthekingsandprincesofthisworldhavethespiritandpowerofphilosophy，andpoliticalgreatnessandwisdommeetinone，andthosecommonernatureswhopursueeithertotheexclusionoftheotherarecompelledtostandaside，citieswillneverhaverestfromtheirevils，——northehumanrace，asIbelieve，——andthenonlywillthisourStatehaveapossibilityoflifeandbeholdthelightofday。Suchwasthethought，mydearGlaucon，whichIwouldfainhaveutteredifithadnotseemedtooextravagant；fortobeconvincedthatinnootherStatecantherebehappinessprivateorpublicisindeedahardthing。

Socrates，whatdoyoumean？Iwouldhaveyouconsiderthatthewordwhichyouhaveutteredisoneatwhichnumerouspersons，andveryrespectablepersonstoo，inafigurepullingofftheircoatsallinamoment，andseizinganyweaponthatcomestohand，willrunatyoumightandmain，beforeyouknowwhereyouare，intendingtodoheavenknowswhat；andifyoudon’tprepareananswer，andputyourselfinmotion，youwillbepreparedbytheirfinewits，’andnomistake。

Yougotmeintothescrape，Isaid。

AndIwasquiteright；however，IwilldoallIcantogetyououtofit；butIcanonlygiveyougood—willandgoodadvice，and，perhaps，Imaybeabletofitanswerstoyourquestionsbetterthananother——thatisall。Andnow，havingsuchanauxiliary，youmustdoyourbesttoshowtheunbelieversthatyouareright。

Ioughttotry，Isaid，sinceyouoffermesuchinvaluableassistance。AndIthinkthat，ifthereistobeachanceofourescaping，wemustexplaintothemwhomwemeanwhenwesaythatphilosophersaretoruleintheState；thenweshallbeabletodefendourselves：TherewillbediscoveredtobesomenatureswhooughttostudyphilosophyandtobeleadersintheState；andotherswhoarenotborntobephilosophers，andaremeanttobefollowersratherthanleaders。

Thennowforadefinition，hesaid。

Followme，Isaid，andIhopethatImayinsomewayorotherbeabletogiveyouasatisfactoryexplanation。

Proceed。

Idaresaythatyouremember，andthereforeIneednotremindyou，thatalover，iflieisworthyofthename，oughttoshowhislove，nottosomeonepartofthatwhichheloves，buttothewhole。

Ireallydonotunderstand，andthereforebegofyoutoassistmymemory。

Anotherperson，Isaid，mightfairlyreplyasyoudo；butamanofpleasurelikeyourselfoughttoknowthatallwhoareintheflowerofyouthdosomehoworotherraiseapangoremotioninalover’sbreast，andarethoughtbyhimtobeworthyofhisaffectionateregards。Isnotthisawaywhichyouhavewiththefair：onehasasnubnose，andyoupraisehischarmingface；thehook—noseofanotherhas，yousay，aroyallook；whilehewhoisneithersnubnorhookedhasthegraceofregularity：thedarkvisageismanly，thefairarechildrenofthegods；andastothesweet’honeypale，’astheyarecalled，whatistheverynamebuttheinventionofaloverwhotalksindiminutives，andisnotadversetopalenessifappearingonthecheekofyouth？Inaword，thereisnoexcusewhichyouwillnotmake，andnothingwhichyouwillnotsay，inordernottoloseasingleflowerthatbloomsinthespring—timeofyouth。

Ifyoumakemeanauthorityinmattersoflove，forthesakeoftheargument，Iassent。

Andwhatdoyousayofloversofwine？Doyounotseethemdoingthesame？Theyaregladofanypretextofdrinkinganywine。

Verygood。

Andthesameistrueofambitiousmen；iftheycannotcommandanarmy，theyarewillingtocommandafile；andiftheycannotbehonouredbyreallygreatandimportantpersons，theyaregladtobehonouredbylesserandmeanerpeople，buthonourofsomekindtheymusthave。

Exactly。

Oncemoreletmeask：Doeshewhodesiresanyclassofgoods，desirethewholeclassorapartonly？

Thewhole。

Andmaywenotsayofthephilosopherthatheisalover，notofapartofwisdomonly，butofthewhole？

Yes，ofthewhole。

Andhewhodislikeslearnings，especiallyinyouth，whenhehasnopowerofjudgingwhatisgoodandwhatisnot，suchanonewemaintainnottobeaphilosopheroraloverofknowledge，justashewhorefuseshisfoodisnothungry，andmaybesaidtohaveabadappetiteandnotagoodone？

Verytrue，hesaid。

Whereashewhohasatasteforeverysortofknowledgeandwhoiscurioustolearnandisneversatisfied，maybejustlytermedaphilosopher？AmInotright？

Glauconsaid：Ifcuriositymakesaphilosopher，youwillfindmanyastrangebeingwillhaveatitletothename。Alltheloversofsightshaveadelightinlearning，andmustthereforebeincluded。

Musicalamateurs，too，areafolkstrangelyoutofplaceamongphilosophers，fortheyarethelastpersonsintheworldwhowouldcometoanythinglikeaphilosophicaldiscussion，iftheycouldhelp，whiletheyrunaboutattheDionysiacfestivalsasiftheyhadletouttheirearstoheareverychorus；whethertheperformanceisintownorcountry——thatmakesnodifference——theyarethere。Nowarewetomaintainthatalltheseandanywhohavesimilartastes，aswellastheprofessorsofquiteminorarts，arephilosophers？

Certainlynot，Ireplied；theyareonlyanimitation。

Hesaid：Whothenarethetruephilosophers？

Those，Isaid，whoareloversofthevisionoftruth。

Thatisalsogood，hesaid；butIshouldliketoknowwhatyoumean？

Toanother，Ireplied，Imighthaveadifficultyinexplaining；

butIamsurethatyouwilladmitapropositionwhichIamabouttomake。

Whatistheproposition？

Thatsincebeautyistheoppositeofugliness，theyaretwo？

Certainly。

Andinasmuchastheyaretwo，eachofthemisone？

Trueagain。

Andofjustandunjust，goodandevil，andofeveryotherclass，thesameremarkholds：takensingly，eachofthemone；butfromthevariouscombinationsofthemwithactionsandthingsandwithoneanother，theyareseeninallsortsoflightsandappearmany？Verytrue。

AndthisisthedistinctionwhichIdrawbetweenthesight—loving，art—loving，practicalclassandthoseofwhomIamspeaking，andwhoarealoneworthyofthenameofphilosophers。

Howdoyoudistinguishthem？hesaid。

Theloversofsoundsandsights，Ireplied，are，asIconceive，fondoffinetonesandcoloursandformsandalltheartificialproductsthataremadeoutofthem，buttheirmindisincapableofseeingorlovingabsolutebeauty。

True，hereplied。

Fewaretheywhoareabletoattaintothesightofthis。

Verytrue。

Andhewho，havingasenseofbeautifulthingshasnosenseofabsolutebeauty，orwho，ifanotherleadhimtoaknowledgeofthatbeautyisunabletofollow——ofsuchanoneIask，Isheawakeorinadreamonly？Reflect：isnotthedreamer，sleepingorwaking，onewholikensdissimilarthings，whoputsthecopyintheplaceoftherealobject？

Ishouldcertainlysaythatsuchanonewasdreaming。

Buttakethecaseoftheother，whorecognisestheexistenceofabsolutebeautyandisabletodistinguishtheideafromtheobjectswhichparticipateintheidea，neitherputtingtheobjectsintheplaceoftheideanortheideaintheplaceoftheobjects——isheadreamer，orisheawake？

Heiswideawake。

Andmaywenotsaythatthemindoftheonewhoknowshasknowledge，andthatthemindoftheother，whoopinesonly，hasopinionCertainly。

Butsupposethatthelattershouldquarrelwithusanddisputeourstatement，canweadministeranysoothingcordialoradvicetohim，withoutrevealingtohimthatthereissaddisorderinhiswits？

Wemustcertainlyofferhimsomegoodadvice，hereplied。

Come，then，andletusthinkofsomethingtosaytohim。Shallwebeginbyassuringhimthatheiswelcometoanyknowledgewhichhemayhave，andthatwearerejoicedathishavingit？Butweshouldliketoaskhimaquestion：Doeshewhohasknowledgeknowsomethingornothing？（Youmustanswerforhim。）

Ianswerthatheknowssomething。

Somethingthatisorisnot？

Somethingthatis；forhowcanthatwhichisnoteverbeknown？

Andareweassured，afterlookingatthematterfrommanypointsofview，thatabsolutebeingisormaybeabsolutelyknown，butthattheutterlynon—existentisutterlyunknown？

Nothingcanbemorecertain。

Good。Butiftherebeanythingwhichisofsuchanatureastobeandnottobe，thatwillhaveaplaceintermediatebetweenpurebeingandtheabsolutenegationofbeing？

Yes，betweenthem。

And，asknowledgecorrespondedtobeingandignoranceofnecessitytonot—being，forthatintermediatebetweenbeingandnot—beingtherehastobediscoveredacorrespondingintermediatebetweenignoranceandknowledge，iftherebesuch？

Certainly。

Doweadmittheexistenceofopinion？

Undoubtedly。

Asbeingthesamewithknowledge，oranotherfaculty？

Anotherfaculty。

Thenopinionandknowledgehavetodowithdifferentkindsofmattercorrespondingtothisdifferenceoffaculties？

Yes。

Andknowledgeisrelativetobeingandknowsbeing。ButbeforeI

proceedfurtherIwillmakeadivision。

Whatdivision？

Iwillbeginbyplacingfacultiesinaclassbythemselves：theyarepowersinus，andinallotherthings，bywhichwedoaswedo。

Sightandhearing，forexample，Ishouldcallfaculties。HaveI

clearlyexplainedtheclasswhichImean？

Yes，Iquiteunderstand。

Thenletmetellyoumyviewaboutthem。Idonotseethem，andthereforethedistinctionsoffire，colour，andthelike，whichenablemetodiscernthedifferencesofsomethings，donotapplytothem。InspeakingofafacultyIthinkonlyofitssphereanditsresult；andthatwhichhasthesamesphereandthesameresultIcallthesamefaculty，butthatwhichhasanothersphereandanotherresultIcalldifferent。Wouldthatbeyourwayofspeaking？

Yes。

Andwillyoubesoverygoodastoansweronemorequestion？Wouldyousaythatknowledgeisafaculty，orinwhatclasswouldyouplaceit？

Certainlyknowledgeisafaculty，andthemightiestofallfaculties。

Andisopinionalsoafaculty？

Certainly，hesaid；foropinionisthatwithwhichweareabletoformanopinion。

Andyetyouwereacknowledgingalittlewhileagothatknowledgeisnotthesameasopinion？

Why，yes，hesaid：howcananyreasonablebeingeveridentifythatwhichisinfalliblewiththatwhicherrs？

Anexcellentanswer，proving，Isaid，thatwearequiteconsciousofadistinctionbetweenthem。

Yes。

Thenknowledgeandopinionhavingdistinctpowershavealsodistinctspheresorsubject—matters？

Thatiscertain。

Beingisthesphereorsubject—matterofknowledge，andknowledgeistoknowthenatureofbeing？

Yes。

Andopinionistohaveanopinion？

Yes。

Anddoweknowwhatweopine？oristhesubject—matterofopinionthesameasthesubject—matterofknowledge？

Nay，hereplied，thathasbeenalreadydisproven；ifdifferenceinfacultyimpliesdifferenceinthesphereorsubjectmatter，andif，asweweresaying，opinionandknowledgearedistinctfaculties，thenthesphereofknowledgeandofopinioncannotbethesame。

Thenifbeingisthesubject—matterofknowledge，somethingelsemustbethesubject—matterofopinion？

Yes，somethingelse。

Wellthen，isnot—beingthesubject—matterofopinion？or，rather，howcantherebeanopinionatallaboutnot—being？Reflect：whenamanhasanopinion，hashenotanopinionaboutsomething？Canhehaveanopinionwhichisanopinionaboutnothing？

Impossible。

Hewhohasanopinionhasanopinionaboutsomeonething？

Yes。

Andnot—beingisnotonethingbut，properlyspeaking，nothing？

True。

Ofnot—being，ignorancewasassumedtobethenecessarycorrelative；

ofbeing，knowledge？

True，hesaid。

Thenopinionisnotconcernedeitherwithbeingorwithnot—being？

Notwitheither。

Andcanthereforeneitherbeignorancenorknowledge？

Thatseemstobetrue。

Butisopiniontobesoughtwithoutandbeyondeitherofthem，inagreaterclearnessthanknowledge，orinagreaterdarknessthanignorance？

Inneither。

ThenIsupposethatopinionappearstoyoutobedarkerthanknowledge，butlighterthanignorance？

Both；andinnosmalldegree。

Andalsotobewithinandbetweenthem？

Yes。