第15章

Andmustnotweswimandtrytoreachtheshore：wewillhopethatArion’sdolphinorsomeothermiraculoushelpmaysaveus？

Isupposeso，hesaid。

Wellthen，letusseeifanywayofescapecanbefound。Weacknowledged——didwenot？thatdifferentnaturesoughttohavedifferentpursuits，andthatmen’sandwomen’snaturesaredifferent。Andnowwhatarewesaying？——thatdifferentnaturesoughttohavethesamepursuits，——thisistheinconsistencywhichischargeduponus。

Precisely。

Verily，Glaucon，Isaid，gloriousisthepoweroftheartofcontradiction！

Whydoyousayso？

BecauseIthinkthatmanyamanfallsintothepracticeagainsthiswill。Whenhethinksthatheisreasoningheisreallydisputing，justbecausehecannotdefineanddivide，andsoknowthatofwhichheisspeaking；andhewillpursueamerelyverbaloppositioninthespiritofcontentionandnotoffairdiscussion。

Yes，hereplied，suchisveryoftenthecase；butwhathasthattodowithusandourargument？

Agreatdeal；forthereiscertainlyadangerofourgettingunintentionallyintoaverbalopposition。

Inwhatway？

Why，wevaliantlyandpugnaciouslyinsistupontheverbaltruth，thatdifferentnaturesoughttohavedifferentpursuits，butweneverconsideredatallwhatwasthemeaningofsamenessordifferenceofnature，orwhywedistinguishedthemwhenweassigneddifferentpursuitstodifferentnaturesandthesametothesamenatures。

Why，no，hesaid，thatwasneverconsideredbyus。

Isaid：Supposethatbywayofillustrationweweretoaskthequestionwhetherthereisnotanoppositioninnaturebetweenbaldmenandhairymen；andifthisisadmittedbyus，then，ifbaldmenarecobblers，weshouldforbidthehairymentobecobblers，andconversely？

Thatwouldbeajest，hesaid。

Yes，Isaid，ajest；andwhy？becausewenevermeantwhenweconstructedtheState，thattheoppositionofnaturesshouldextendtoeverydifference，butonlytothosedifferenceswhichaffectedthepursuitinwhichtheindividualisengaged；weshouldhaveargued，forexample，thataphysicianandonewhoisinmindaphysicianmaybesaidtohavethesamenature。

True。

Whereasthephysicianandthecarpenterhavedifferentnatures？

Certainly。

Andif，Isaid，themaleandfemalesexappeartodifferintheirfitnessforanyartorpursuit，weshouldsaythatsuchpursuitorartoughttobeassignedtooneortheotherofthem；butifthedifferenceconsistsonlyinwomenbearingandmenbegettingchildren，thisdoesnotamounttoaproofthatawomandiffersfromamaninrespectofthesortofeducationsheshouldreceive；andweshallthereforecontinuetomaintainthatourguardiansandtheirwivesoughttohavethesamepursuits。

Verytrue，hesaid。

Next，weshallaskouropponenthow，inreferencetoanyofthepursuitsorartsofciviclife，thenatureofawomandiffersfromthatofaman？

Thatwillbequitefair。

Andperhapshe，likeyourself，willreplythattogiveasufficientanswerontheinstantisnoteasy；butafteralittlereflectionthereisnodifficulty。

Yes，perhaps。

Supposethenthatweinvitehimtoaccompanyusintheargument，andthenwemayhopetoshowhimthatthereisnothingpeculiarintheconstitutionofwomenwhichwouldaffectthemintheadministrationoftheState。

Byallmeans。

Letussaytohim：Comenow，andwewillaskyouaquestion：

——whenyouspokeofanaturegiftedornotgiftedinanyrespect，didyoumeantosaythatonemanwillacquireathingeasily，anotherwithdifficulty；alittlelearningwillleadtheonetodiscoveragreatdeal；whereastheother，aftermuchstudyandapplication，nosoonerlearnsthanheforgets；oragain，didyoumean，thattheonehasabodywhichisagoodservanttohismind，whilethebodyoftheotherisahindrancetohim？—wouldnotthesebethesortofdifferenceswhichdistinguishthemangiftedbynaturefromtheonewhoisungifted？

Noonewilldenythat。

Andcanyoumentionanypursuitofmankindinwhichthemalesexhasnotallthesegiftsandqualitiesinahigherdegreethanthefemale？NeedIwastetimeinspeakingoftheartofweaving，andthemanagementofpancakesandpreserves，inwhichwomankinddoesreallyappeartobegreat，andinwhichforhertobebeatenbyamanisofallthingsthemostabsurd？

Youarequiteright，hereplied，inmaintainingthegeneralinferiorityofthefemalesex：althoughmanywomenareinmanythingssuperiortomanymen，yetonthewholewhatyousayistrue。

Andifso，myfriend，Isaid，thereisnospecialfacultyofadministrationinastatewhichawomanhasbecausesheisawoman，orwhichamanhasbyvirtueofhissex，butthegiftsofnaturearealikediffusedinboth；allthepursuitsofmenarethepursuitsofwomenalso，butinallofthemawomanisinferiortoaman。

Verytrue。

Thenarewetoimposeallourenactmentsonmenandnoneofthemonwomen？

Thatwillneverdo。

Onewomanhasagiftofhealing，anothernot；oneisamusician，andanotherhasnomusicinhernature？

Verytrue。

Andonewomanhasaturnforgymnasticandmilitaryexercises，andanotherisunwarlikeandhatesgymnastics？

Certainly。

Andonewomanisaphilosopher，andanotherisanenemyofphilosophy；onehasspirit，andanotheriswithoutspirit？

Thatisalsotrue。

Thenonewomanwillhavethetemperofaguardian，andanothernot。Wasnottheselectionofthemaleguardiansdeterminedbydifferencesofthissort？

Yes。

Menandwomenalikepossessthequalitieswhichmakeaguardian；

theydifferonlyintheircomparativestrengthorweakness。

Obviously。

Andthosewomenwhohavesuchqualitiesaretobeselectedasthecompanionsandcolleaguesofmenwhohavesimilarqualitiesandwhomtheyresembleincapacityandincharacter？

Verytrue。

Andoughtnotthesamenaturestohavethesamepursuits？

Theyought。

Then，asweweresayingbefore，thereisnothingunnaturalinassigningmusicandgymnastictothewivesoftheguardians——tothatpointwecomeroundagain。

Certainlynot。

Thelawwhichwethenenactedwasagreeabletonature，andthereforenotanimpossibilityormereaspiration；andthecontrarypractice，whichprevailsatpresent，isinrealityaviolationofnature。

Thatappearstobetrue。

Wehadtoconsider，first，whetherourproposalswerepossible，andsecondlywhethertheywerethemostbeneficial？

Yes。

Andthepossibilityhasbeenacknowledged？

Yes。

Theverygreatbenefithasnexttobeestablished？

Quiteso。

Youwilladmitthatthesameeducationwhichmakesamanagoodguardianwillmakeawomanagoodguardian；fortheiroriginalnatureisthesame？

Yes。

Ishouldliketoaskyouaquestion。

Whatisit？

Wouldyousaythatallmenareequalinexcellence，orisonemanbetterthananother？

Thelatter。

Andinthecommonwealthwhichwewerefoundingdoyouconceivetheguardianswhohavebeenbroughtuponourmodelsystemtobemoreperfectmen，orthecobblerswhoseeducationhasbeencobbling？

Whataridiculousquestion！

Youhaveansweredme，Ireplied：Well，andmaywenotfurthersaythatourguardiansarethebestofourcitizens？

Byfarthebest。

Andwillnottheirwivesbethebestwomen？

Yes，byfarthebest。

AndcantherebeanythingbetterfortheinterestsoftheStatethanthatthemenandwomenofaStateshouldbeasgoodaspossible？

Therecanbenothingbetter。

Andthisiswhattheartsofmusicandgymnastic，whenpresentinsuchmanneraswehavedescribed，willaccomplish？

Certainly。

ThenwehavemadeanenactmentnotonlypossiblebutinthehighestdegreebeneficialtotheState？

True。

Thenletthewivesofourguardiansstrip，fortheirvirtuewillbetheirrobe，andletthemshareinthetoilsofwarandthedefenceoftheircountry；onlyinthedistributionoflaboursthelighteraretobeassignedtothewomen，whoaretheweakernatures，butinotherrespectstheirdutiesaretobethesame。Andasforthemanwholaughsatnakedwomenexercisingtheirbodiesfromthebestofmotives，inhislaughterheispluckingAfruitofunripewisdom，andhehimselfisignorantofwhatheislaughingat，orwhatheisabout；——forthatis，andeverwillbe，thebestofsayings，Thattheusefulisthenobleandthehurtfulisthebase。

Verytrue。

Here，then，isonedifficultyinourlawaboutwomen，whichwemaysaythatwehavenowescaped；thewavehasnotswallowedusupaliveforenactingthattheguardiansofeithersexshouldhavealltheirpursuitsincommon；totheutilityandalsotothepossibilityofthisarrangementtheconsistencyoftheargumentwithitselfbearswitness。

Yes，thatwasamightywavewhichyouhaveescaped。

Yes，Isaid，butagreateriscoming；youwillofthiswhenyouseethenext。

Goon；letmesee。

Thelaw，Isaid，whichisthesequelofthisandofallthathaspreceded，istothefollowingeffect，——’thatthewivesofourguardiansaretobecommon，andtheirchildrenaretobecommon，andnoparentistoknowhisownchild，noranychildhisparent。’

Yes，hesaid，thatisamuchgreaterwavethantheother；andthepossibilityaswellastheutilityofsuchalawarefarmorequestionable。

Idonotthink，Isaid，thattherecanbeanydisputeabouttheverygreatutilityofhavingwivesandchildrenincommon；thepossibilityisquiteanothermatter，andwillbeverymuchdisputed。

Ithinkthatagoodmanydoubtsmayberaisedaboutboth。

Youimplythatthetwoquestionsmustbecombined，Ireplied。NowImeantthatyoushouldadmittheutility；andinthisway，asI

thought；Ishouldescapefromoneofthem，andthentherewouldremainonlythepossibility。

Butthatlittleattemptisdetected，andthereforeyouwillpleasetogiveadefenceofboth。

Well，Isaid，Isubmittomyfate。Yetgrantmealittlefavour：letmefeastmymindwiththedreamasdaydreamersareinthehabitoffeastingthemselveswhentheyarewalkingalone；forbeforetheyhavediscoveredanymeansofeffectingtheirwishes——thatisamatterwhichnevertroublesthem——theywouldrathernottirethemselvesbythinkingaboutpossibilities；butassumingthatwhattheydesireisalreadygrantedtothem，theyproceedwiththeirplan，anddelightindetailingwhattheymeantodowhentheirwishhascometrue——thatisawaywhichtheyhaveofnotdoingmuchgoodtoacapacitywhichwasnevergoodformuch。NowImyselfambeginningtoloseheart，andIshouldlike，withyourpermission，topassoverthequestionofpossibilityatpresent。Assumingthereforethepossibilityoftheproposal，Ishallnowproceedtoenquirehowtherulerswillcarryoutthesearrangements，andIshalldemonstratethatourplan，ifexecuted，willbeofthegreatestbenefittotheStateandtotheguardians。Firstofall，then，ifyouhavenoobjection，Iwillendeavourwithyourhelptoconsidertheadvantagesofthemeasure；

andhereafterthequestionofpossibility。

Ihavenoobjection；proceed。

First，Ithinkthatifourrulersandtheirauxiliariesaretobeworthyofthenamewhichtheybear，theremustbewillingnesstoobeyintheoneandthepowerofcommandintheother；theguardiansmustthemselvesobeythelaws，andtheymustalsoimitatethespiritoftheminanydetailswhichareentrustedtotheircare。

Thatisright，hesaid。

You，Isaid，whoaretheirlegislator，havingselectedthemen，willnowselectthewomenandgivethemtothem；——theymustbeasfaraspossibleoflikenatureswiththem；andtheymustliveincommonhousesandmeetatcommonmeals，Noneofthemwillhaveanythingspeciallyhisorherown；theywillbetogether，andwillbebroughtuptogether，andwillassociateatgymnasticexercises。Andsotheywillbedrawnbyanecessityoftheirnaturestohaveintercoursewitheachother——necessityisnottoostrongaword，Ithink？

Yes，hesaid；——necessity，notgeometrical，butanothersortofnecessitywhichloversknow，andwhichisfarmoreconvincingandconstrainingtothemassofmankind。

True，Isaid；andthis，Glaucon，likealltherest，mustproceedafteranorderlyfashion；inacityoftheblessed，licentiousnessisanunholythingwhichtherulerswillforbid。

Yes，hesaid，anditoughtnottobepermitted。

Thenclearlythenextthingwillbetomakematrimonysacredinthehighestdegree，andwhatismostbeneficialwillbedeemedsacred？

Exactly。

Andhowcanmarriagesbemademostbeneficial？——thatisaquestionwhichIputtoyou，becauseIseeinyourhousedogsforhunting，andofthenoblersortofbirdsnotafew。Now，Ibeseechyou，dotellme，haveyoueverattendedtotheirpairingandbreeding？

Inwhatparticulars？

Why，inthefirstplace，althoughtheyareallofagoodsort，arenotsomebetterthanothers？

True。

Anddoyoubreedfromthemallindifferently，ordoyoutakecaretobreedfromthebestonly？

Fromthebest。

Anddoyoutaketheoldestortheyoungest，oronlythoseofripeage？

Ichooseonlythoseofripeage。

Andifcarewasnottakeninthebreeding，yourdogsandbirdswouldgreatlydeteriorate？

Certainly。

Andthesameofhorsesandanimalsingeneral？

Undoubtedly。

Goodheavens！mydearfriend，Isaid，whatconsummateskillwillourrulersneedifthesameprincipleholdsofthehumanspecies！

Certainly，thesameprincipleholds；butwhydoesthisinvolveanyparticularskill？

Because，Isaid，ourrulerswilloftenhavetopractiseuponthebodycorporatewithmedicines。Nowyouknowthatwhenpatientsdonotrequiremedicines，buthaveonlytobeputunderaregimen，theinferiorsortofpractitionerisdeemedtobegoodenough；butwhenmedicinehastobegiven，thenthedoctorshouldbemoreofaman。

Thatisquitetrue，hesaid；buttowhatareyoualluding？

Imean，Ireplied，thatourrulerswillfindaconsiderabledoseoffalsehoodanddeceitnecessaryforthegoodoftheirsubjects：weweresayingthattheuseofallthesethingsregardedasmedicinesmightbeofadvantage。

Andwewereveryright。

Andthislawfuluseofthemseemslikelytobeoftenneededintheregulationsofmarriagesandbirths。

Howso？

Why，Isaid，theprinciplehasbeenalreadylaiddownthatthebestofeithersexshouldbeunitedwiththebestasoften，andtheinferiorwiththeinferior，asseldomaspossible；andthattheyshouldreartheoffspringoftheonesortofunion，butnotoftheother，iftheflockistobemaintainedinfirst—ratecondition。Nowthesegoingsonmustbeasecretwhichtherulersonlyknow，ortherewillbeafurtherdangerofourherd，astheguardiansmaybetermed，breakingoutintorebellion。

Verytrue。

Hadwenotbetterappointcertainfestivalsatwhichwewillbringtogetherthebridesandbridegrooms，andsacrificeswillbeofferedandsuitablehymenealsongscomposedbyourpoets：thenumberofweddingsisamatterwhichmustbelefttothediscretionoftherulers，whoseaimwillbetopreservetheaverageofpopulation？Therearemanyotherthingswhichtheywillhavetoconsider，suchastheeffectsofwarsanddiseasesandanysimilaragencies，inorderasfarasthisispossibletopreventtheStatefrombecomingeithertoolargeortoosmall。

Certainly，hereplied。

Weshallhavetoinventsomeingeniouskindoflotswhichthelessworthymaydrawoneachoccasionofourbringingthemtogether，andthentheywillaccusetheirownill—luckandnottherulers。

Tobesure，hesaid。

AndIthinkthatourbraverandbetteryouth，besidestheirotherhonoursandrewards，mighthavegreaterfacilitiesofintercoursewithwomengiventhem；theirbraverywillbeareason，andsuchfathersoughttohaveasmanysonsaspossible。

True。

Andtheproperofficers，whethermaleorfemaleorboth，forofficesaretobeheldbywomenaswellasbymen——

Yes——

Theproperofficerswilltaketheoffspringofthegoodparentstothepenorfold，andtheretheywilldepositthemwithcertainnurseswhodwellinaseparatequarter；buttheoffspringoftheinferior，orofthebetterwhentheychancetobedeformed，willbeputawayinsomemysterious，unknownplace，astheyshouldbe。

Yes，hesaid，thatmustbedoneifthebreedoftheguardiansistobekeptpure。

Theywillprovidefortheirnurture，andwillbringthemotherstothefoldwhentheyarefullofmilk，takingthegreatestpossiblecarethatnomotherrecognizesherownchild；andotherwet—nursesmaybeengagedifmorearerequired。Carewillalsobetakenthattheprocessofsucklingshallnotbeprotractedtoolong；andthemotherswillhavenogettingupatnightorothertrouble，butwillhandoverallthissortofthingtothenursesandattendants。

Yousupposethewivesofourguardianstohaveafineeasytimeofitwhentheyarehavingchildren。

Why，saidI，andsotheyought。Letus，however，proceedwithourscheme。Weweresayingthattheparentsshouldbeintheprimeoflife？

Verytrue。

Andwhatistheprimeoflife？Mayitnotbedefinedasaperiodofabouttwentyyearsinawoman’slife，andthirtyinaman’s？

Whichyearsdoyoumeantoinclude？

Awoman，Isaid，attwentyyearsofagemaybegintobearchildrentotheState，andcontinuetobearthemuntilforty；amanmaybeginatfive—and—twenty，whenhehaspassedthepointatwhichthepulseoflifebeatsquickest，andcontinuetobegetchildrenuntilhebefifty—five。

Certainly，hesaid，bothinmenandwomenthoseyearsaretheprimeofphysicalaswellasofintellectualvigour。

Anyoneaboveorbelowtheprescribedageswhotakespartinthepublichymenealsshallbesaidtohavedoneanunholyandunrighteousthing；thechildofwhichheisthefather，ifitstealsintolife，willhavebeenconceivedunderauspicesveryunlikethesacrificesandprayers，whichateachhymenealpriestessesandpriestandthewholecitywilloffer，thatthenewgenerationmaybebetterandmoreusefulthantheirgoodandusefulparents，whereashischildwillbetheoffspringofdarknessandstrangelust。

Verytrue，hereplied。

Andthesamelawwillapplytoanyoneofthosewithintheprescribedagewhoformsaconnectionwithanywomanintheprimeoflifewithoutthesanctionoftherulers；forweshallsaythatheisraisingupabastardtotheState，uncertifiedandunconsecrated。

Verytrue，hereplied。

Thisapplies，however，onlytothosewhoarewithinthespecifiedage：afterthatweallowthemtorangeatwill，exceptthatamanmaynotmarryhisdaughterorhisdaughter’sdaughter，orhismotherorhismother’smother；andwomen，ontheotherhand，areprohibitedfrommarryingtheirsonsorfathers，orson’ssonorfather’sfather，andsoonineitherdirection。Andwegrantallthis，accompanyingthepermissionwithstrictorderstopreventanyembryowhichmaycomeintobeingfromseeingthelight；andifanyforceawaytothebirth，theparentsmustunderstandthattheoffspringofsuchanunioncannotbemaintained，andarrangeaccordingly。

Thatalso，hesaid，isareasonableproposition。Buthowwilltheyknowwhoarefathersanddaughters，andsoon？

Theywillneverknow。Thewaywillbethis：——datingfromthedayofthehymeneal，thebridegroomwhowasthenmarriedwillcallallthemalechildrenwhoarebornintheseventhandtenthmonthafterwardshissons，andthefemalechildrenhisdaughters，andtheywillcallhimfather，andhewillcalltheirchildrenhisgrandchildren，andtheywillcalltheeldergenerationgrandfathersandgrandmothers。Allwhowerebegottenatthetimewhentheirfathersandmotherscametogetherwillbecalledtheirbrothersandsisters，andthese，asI