第14章

Andso，aftermuchtossing，wehavereachedland，andarefairlyagreedthatthesameprincipleswhichexistintheStateexistalsointheindividual，andthattheyarethreeinnumber。

Exactly。

Mustwenottheninferthattheindividualiswiseinthesameway，andinvirtueofthesamequalitywhichmakestheStatewise？

Certainly。

AlsothatthesamequalitywhichconstitutescourageintheStateconstitutescourageintheindividual，andthatboththeStateandtheindividualbearthesamerelationtoalltheothervirtues？

Assuredly。

AndtheindividualwillbeacknowledgedbyustobejustinthesamewayinwhichtheStateisjust？

Thatfollows，ofcourse。

WecannotbutrememberthatthejusticeoftheStateconsistedineachofthethreeclassesdoingtheworkofitsownclass？

Wearenotverylikelytohaveforgotten，hesaid。

Wemustrecollectthattheindividualinwhomtheseveralqualitiesofhisnaturedotheirownworkwillbejust，andwilldohisownwork？

Yes，hesaid，wemustrememberthattoo。

Andoughtnottherationalprinciple，whichiswise，andhasthecareofthewholesoul，torule，andthepassionateorspiritedprincipletobethesubjectandally？

Certainly。

And，asweweresaying，theunitedinfluenceofmusicandgymnasticwillbringthemintoaccord，nervingandsustainingthereasonwithnoblewordsandlessons，andmoderatingandsoothingandcivilizingthewildnessofpassionbyharmonyandrhythm？

Quitetrue，hesaid。

Andthesetwo，thusnurturedandeducated，andhavinglearnedtrulytoknowtheirownfunctions，willruleovertheconcupiscent，whichineachofusisthelargestpartofthesoulandbynaturemostinsatiableofgain；overthistheywillkeepguard，lest，waxinggreatandstrongwiththefulnessofbodilypleasures，astheyaretermed，theconcupiscentsoul，nolongerconfinedtoherownsphere，shouldattempttoenslaveandrulethosewhoarenothernatural—bornsubjects，andoverturnthewholelifeofman？

Verytrue，hesaid。

Bothtogetherwilltheynotbethebestdefendersofthewholesoulandthewholebodyagainstattacksfromwithout；theonecounselling，andtheotherfightingunderhisleader，andcourageouslyexecutinghiscommandsandcounsels？

True。

Andheistobedeemedcourageouswhosespiritretainsinpleasureandinpainthecommandsofreasonaboutwhatheoughtoroughtnottofear？

Right，hereplied。

Andhimwecallwisewhohasinhimthatlittlepartwhichrules，andwhichproclaimsthesecommands；thatparttoobeingsupposedtohaveaknowledgeofwhatisfortheinterestofeachofthethreepartsandofthewhole？

Assuredly。

Andwouldyounotsaythatheistemperatewhohasthesesameelementsinfriendlyharmony，inwhomtheonerulingprincipleofreason，andthetwosubjectonesofspiritanddesireareequallyagreedthatreasonoughttorule，anddonotrebel？

Certainly，hesaid，thatisthetrueaccountoftemperancewhetherintheStateorindividual。

Andsurely，Isaid，wehaveexplainedagainandagainhowandbyvirtueofwhatqualityamanwillbejust。

Thatisverycertain。

Andisjusticedimmerintheindividual，andisherformdifferent，orisshethesamewhichwefoundhertobeintheState？

Thereisnodifferenceinmyopinion，hesaid。

Because，ifanydoubtisstilllingeringinourminds，afewcommonplaceinstanceswillsatisfyusofthetruthofwhatIamsaying。

Whatsortofinstancesdoyoumean？

Ifthecaseisputtous，mustwenotadmitthatthejustState，orthemanwhoistrainedintheprinciplesofsuchaState，willbelesslikelythantheunjusttomakeawaywithadepositofgoldorsilver？Wouldanyonedenythis？

Noone，hereplied。

Willthejustmanorcitizeneverbeguiltyofsacrilegeortheft，ortreacheryeithertohisfriendsortohiscountry？

Never。

Neitherwillheeverbreakfaithwheretherehavebeenoathsoragreements？

Impossible。

Noonewillbelesslikelytocommitadultery，ortodishonourhisfatherandmother，ortofallinhisreligiousduties？

Noone。

Andthereasonisthateachpartofhimisdoingitsownbusiness，whetherinrulingorbeingruled？

Exactlyso。

Areyousatisfiedthenthatthequalitywhichmakessuchmenandsuchstatesisjustice，ordoyouhopetodiscoversomeother？

NotI，indeed。

Thenourdreamhasbeenrealised；andthesuspicionwhichweentertainedatthebeginningofourworkofconstruction，thatsomedivinepowermusthaveconductedustoaprimaryformofjustice，hasnowbeenverified？

Yes，certainly。

Andthedivisionoflabourwhichrequiredthecarpenterandtheshoemakerandtherestofthecitizenstobedoingeachhisownbusiness，andnotanother’s，wasashadowofjustice，andforthatreasonitwasofuse？

Clearly。

Butinrealityjusticewassuchasweweredescribing，beingconcernedhowever，notwiththeoutwardman，butwiththeinward，whichisthetrueselfandconcernmentofman：forthejustmandoesnotpermittheseveralelementswithinhimtointerferewithoneanother，oranyofthemtodotheworkofothers，——hesetsinorderhisowninnerlife，andishisownmasterandhisownlaw，andatpeacewithhimself；andwhenhehasboundtogetherthethreeprincipleswithinhim，whichmaybecomparedtothehigher，lower，andmiddlenotesofthescale，andtheintermediateintervals——whenhehasboundallthesetogether，andisnolongermany，buthasbecomeoneentirelytemperateandperfectlyadjustednature，thenheproceedstoact，ifhehastoact，whetherinamatterofproperty，orinthetreatmentofthebody，orinsomeaffairofpoliticsorprivatebusiness；alwaysthinkingandcallingthatwhichpreservesandco—operateswiththisharmoniouscondition，justandgoodaction，andtheknowledgewhichpresidesoverit，wisdom，andthatwhichatanytimeimpairsthiscondition，hewillcallunjustaction，andtheopinionwhichpresidesoveritignorance。

Youhavesaidtheexacttruth，Socrates。

Verygood；andifweweretoaffirmthatwehaddiscoveredthejustmanandthejustState，andthenatureofjusticeineachofthem，weshouldnotbetellingafalsehood？

Mostcertainlynot。

Maywesayso，then？

Letussayso。

Andnow，Isaid，injusticehastobeconsidered。

Clearly。

Mustnotinjusticebeastrifewhicharisesamongthethreeprinciples——ameddlesomeness，andinterference，andrisingupofapartofthesoulagainstthewhole，anassertionofunlawfulauthority，whichismadebyarebellioussubjectagainstatrueprince，ofwhomheisthenaturalvassal，——whatisallthisconfusionanddelusionbutinjustice，andintemperanceandcowardiceandignorance，andeveryformofvice？

Exactlyso。

Andifthenatureofjusticeandinjusticebeknown，thenthemeaningofactingunjustlyandbeingunjust，or，again，ofactingjustly，willalsobeperfectlyclear？

Whatdoyoumean？hesaid。

Why，Isaid，theyarelikediseaseandhealth；beinginthesouljustwhatdiseaseandhealthareinthebody。

Howso？hesaid。

Why，Isaid，thatwhichishealthycauseshealth，andthatwhichisunhealthycausesdisease。

Yes。

Andjustactionscausejustice，andunjustactionscauseinjustice？

Thatiscertain。

Andthecreationofhealthistheinstitutionofanaturalorderandgovernmentofonebyanotherinthepartsofthebody；andthecreationofdiseaseistheproductionofastateofthingsatvariancewiththisnaturalorder？

True。

Andisnotthecreationofjusticetheinstitutionofanaturalorderandgovernmentofonebyanotherinthepartsofthesoul，andthecreationofinjusticetheproductionofastateofthingsatvariancewiththenaturalorder？

Exactlyso，hesaid。

Thenvirtueisthehealthandbeautyandwell—beingofthesoul，andvicethediseaseandweaknessanddeformityofthesame？

True。

Anddonotgoodpracticesleadtovirtue，andevilpracticestovice？

Assuredly。

Stillouroldquestionofthecomparativeadvantageofjusticeandinjusticehasnotbeenanswered：Whichisthemoreprofitable，tobejustandactjustlyandpractisevirtue，whetherseenorunseenofgodsandmen，ortobeunjustandactunjustly，ifonlyunpunishedandunreformed？

Inmyjudgment，Socrates，thequestionhasnowbecomeridiculous。Weknowthat，whenthebodilyconstitutionisgone，lifeisnolongerendurable，thoughpamperedwithallkindsofmeatsanddrinks，andhavingallwealthandallpower；andshallwebetoldthatwhentheveryessenceofthevitalprincipleisunderminedandcorrupted，lifeisstillworthhavingtoaman，ifonlyhebeallowedtodowhateverhelikeswiththesingleexceptionthatheisnottoacquirejusticeandvirtue，ortoescapefrominjusticeandvice；

assumingthembothtobesuchaswehavedescribed？

Yes，Isaid，thequestionis，asyousay，ridiculous。Still，aswearenearthespotatwhichwemayseethetruthintheclearestmannerwithourowneyes，letusnotfaintbytheway。

Certainlynot，hereplied。

Comeuphither，Isaid，andbeholdthevariousformsofvice，thoseofthem，Imean，whichareworthlookingat。

Iamfollowingyou，hereplied：proceed。

Isaid，Theargumentseemstohavereachedaheightfromwhich，asfromsometowerofspeculation，amanmaylookdownandseethatvirtueisone，butthattheformsofviceareinnumerable；therebeingfourspecialoneswhicharedeservingofnote。

Whatdoyoumean？hesaid。

Imean，Ireplied，thatthereappeartobeasmanyformsofthesoulastherearedistinctformsoftheState。

Howmany？

TherearefiveoftheState，andfiveofthesoul，Isaid。

Whatarethey？

Thefirst，Isaid，isthatwhichwehavebeendescribing，andwhichmaybesaidtohavetwonames，monarchyandaristocracy，accordinglyasruleisexercisedbyonedistinguishedmanorbymany。

True，hereplied。

ButIregardthetwonamesasdescribingoneformonly；forwhetherthegovernmentisinthehandsofoneormany，ifthegovernorshavebeentrainedinthemannerwhichwehavesupposed，thefundamentallawsoftheStatewillbemaintained。

Thatistrue，hereplied。

BOOKV

SOCRATES—GLAUCON—ADEIMANTUS

SUCHisthegoodandtrueCityorState，andthegoodandmanisofthesamepattern；andifthisisrighteveryotheriswrong；andtheevilisonewhichaffectsnotonlytheorderingoftheState，butalsotheregulationoftheindividualsoul，andisexhibitedinfourforms。

Whatarethey？hesaid。

Iwasproceedingtotelltheorderinwhichthefourevilformsappearedtometosucceedoneanother，whenPolemarchus，whowassittingalittlewayoff，justbeyondAdeimantus，begantowhispertohim：stretchingforthhishand，hetookholdoftheupperpartofhiscoatbytheshoulder，anddrewhimtowardshim，leaningforwardhimselfsoastobequitecloseandsayingsomethinginhisear，ofwhichIonlycaughtthewords，’Shallwelethimoff，orwhatshallwedo？

Certainlynot，saidAdeimantus，raisinghisvoice。

Whoisit，Isaid，whomyouarerefusingtoletoff？

You，hesaid。

Irepeated，WhyamIespeciallynottobeletoff？

Why，hesaid，wethinkthatyouarelazy，andmeantocheatusoutofawholechapterwhichisaveryimportantpartofthestory；andyoufancythatweshallnotnoticeyourairywayofproceeding；asifitwereself—evidenttoeverybody，thatinthematterofwomenandchildren’friendshaveallthingsincommon。’

AndwasInotright，Adeimantus？

Yes，hesaid；butwhatisrightinthisparticularcase，likeeverythingelse，requirestobeexplained；forcommunitymaybeofmanykinds。Please，therefore，tosaywhatsortofcommunityyoumean。

Wehavebeenlongexpectingthatyouwouldtellussomethingaboutthefamilylifeofyourcitizens——howtheywillbringchildrenintotheworld，andrearthemwhentheyhavearrived，and，ingeneral，whatisthenatureofthiscommunityofwomenandchildren—forweareofopinionthattherightorwrongmanagementofsuchmatterswillhaveagreatandparamountinfluenceontheStateforgoodorforevil。Andnow，sincethequestionisstillundetermined，andyouaretakinginhandanotherState，wehaveresolved，asyouheard，nottoletyougountilyougiveanaccountofallthis。

Tothatresolution，saidGlaucon，youmayregardmeassayingAgreed。

SOCRATES—ADEIMANTUS—GLAUCON—THRASYMACHUS

Andwithoutmoreado，saidThrasymachus，youmayconsiderusalltobeequallyagreed。

Isaid，Youknownotwhatyouaredoinginthusassailingme：WhatanargumentareyouraisingabouttheState！JustasIthoughtthatIhadfinished，andwasonlytoogladthatIhadlaidthisquestiontosleep，andwasreflectinghowfortunateIwasinyouracceptanceofwhatIthensaid，youaskmetobeginagainattheveryfoundation，ignorantofwhatahornet’snestofwordsyouarestirring。NowI

foresawthisgatheringtrouble，andavoidedit。

Forwhatpurposedoyouconceivethatwehavecomehere，saidThrasymachus，——tolookforgold，ortoheardiscourse？

Yes，butdiscourseshouldhavealimit。

Yes，Socrates，saidGlaucon，andthewholeoflifeistheonlylimitwhichwisemenassigntothehearingofsuchdiscourses。Butnevermindaboutus；takeheartyourselfandanswerthequestioninyourownway：Whatsortofcommunityofwomenandchildrenisthiswhichistoprevailamongourguardians？andhowshallwemanagetheperiodbetweenbirthandeducation，whichseemstorequirethegreatestcare？

Tellushowthesethingswillbe。

Yes，mysimplefriend，buttheansweristhereverseofeasy；manymoredoubtsariseaboutthisthanaboutourpreviousconclusions。

Forthepracticabilityofwhatissaidmaybedoubted；andlookedatinanotherpointofview，whetherthescheme，ifeversopracticable，wouldbeforthebest，isalsodoubtful。HenceIfeelareluctancetoapproachthesubject，lestouraspiration，mydearfriend，shouldturnouttobeadreamonly。

Fearnot，hereplied，foryouraudiencewillnotbeharduponyou；

theyarenotscepticalorhostile。

Isaid：Mygoodfriend，Isupposethatyoumeantoencouragemebythesewords。

Yes，hesaid。

Thenletmetellyouthatyouaredoingjustthereverse；theencouragementwhichyouofferwouldhavebeenallverywellhadI

myselfbelievedthatIknewwhatIwastalkingabout：todeclarethetruthaboutmattersofhighinterestwhichamanhonoursandlovesamongwisemenwholovehimneedoccasionnofearorfalteringinhismind；buttocarryonanargumentwhenyouareyourselfonlyahesitatingenquirer，whichismycondition，isadangerousandslipperything；andthedangerisnotthatIshallbelaughedat（ofwhichthefearwouldbechildish），butthatIshallmissthetruthwhereIhavemostneedtobesureofmyfooting，anddragmyfriendsaftermeinmyfall。AndIprayNemesisnottovisituponmethewordswhichIamgoingtoutter。ForIdoindeedbelievethattobeaninvoluntaryhomicideisalesscrimethantobeadeceiveraboutbeautyorgoodnessorjusticeinthematteroflaws。AndthatisariskwhichIwouldratherrunamongenemiesthanamongfriends，andthereforeyoudowelltoencourageme。

Glauconlaughedandsaid：Wellthen，Socrates，incaseyouandyourargumentdousanyseriousinjuryyoushallbeacquittedbeforehandoftheandshallnotbeheldtobeadeceiver；takecouragethenandspeak。

Well，Isaid，thelawsaysthatwhenamanisacquittedheisfreefromguilt，andwhatholdsatlawmayholdinargument。

Thenwhyshouldyoumind？

Well，Ireplied，IsupposethatImustretracemystepsandsaywhatIperhapsoughttohavesaidbeforeintheproperplace。Thepartofthemenhasbeenplayedout，andnowproperlyenoughcomestheturnofthewomen。OfthemIwillproceedtospeak，andthemorereadilysinceIaminvitedbyyou。

Formenbornandeducatedlikeourcitizens，theonlyway，inmyopinion，ofarrivingatarightconclusionaboutthepossessionanduseofwomenandchildrenistofollowthepathonwhichweoriginallystarted，whenwesaidthatthemenweretobetheguardiansandwatchdogsoftheherd。

True。

Letusfurthersupposethebirthandeducationofourwomentobesubjecttosimilarornearlysimilarregulations；thenweshallseewhethertheresultaccordswithourdesign。

Whatdoyoumean？

WhatImeanmaybeputintotheformofaquestion，Isaid：Aredogsdividedintohesandshes，ordotheybothshareequallyinhuntingandinkeepingwatchandintheotherdutiesofdogs？ordoweentrusttothemalestheentireandexclusivecareoftheflocks，whileweleavethefemalesathome，undertheideathatthebearingandsucklingtheirpuppiesislabourenoughforthem？

No，hesaid，theysharealike；theonlydifferencebetweenthemisthatthemalesarestrongerandthefemalesweaker。

Butcanyouusedifferentanimalsforthesamepurpose，unlesstheyarebredandfedinthesameway？

Youcannot。

Then，ifwomenaretohavethesamedutiesasmen，theymusthavethesamenurtureandeducation？

Yes。

Theeducationwhichwasassignedtothemenwasmusicandgymnastic。

Yes。

Thenwomenmustbetaughtmusicandgymnasticandalsotheartofwar，whichtheymustpractiselikethemen？

Thatistheinference，Isuppose。

Ishouldratherexpect，Isaid，thatseveralofourproposals，iftheyarecarriedout，beingunusual，mayappearridiculous。

Nodoubtofit。

Yes，andthemostridiculousthingofallwillbethesightofwomennakedinthepalaestra，exercisingwiththemen，especiallywhentheyarenolongeryoung；theycertainlywillnotbeavisionofbeauty，anymorethantheenthusiasticoldmenwhoinspiteofwrinklesanduglinesscontinuetofrequentthegymnasia。

Yes，indeed，hesaid：accordingtopresentnotionstheproposalwouldbethoughtridiculous。

Butthen，Isaid，aswehavedeterminedtospeakourminds，wemustnotfearthejestsofthewitswhichwillbedirectedagainstthissortofinnovation；howtheywilltalkofwomen’sattainmentsbothinmusicandgymnastic，andaboveallabouttheirwearingarmourandridinguponhorseback！

Verytrue，hereplied。

Yethavingbegunwemustgoforwardtotheroughplacesofthelaw；atthesametimebeggingofthesegentlemenforonceintheirlifetobeserious。Notlongago，asweshallremindthem，theHelleneswereoftheopinion，whichisstillgenerallyreceivedamongthebarbarians，thatthesightofanakedmanwasridiculousandimproper；andwhenfirsttheCretansandthentheLacedaemoniansintroducedthecustom，thewitsofthatdaymightequallyhaveridiculedtheinnovation。

Nodoubt。

Butwhenexperienceshowedthattoletallthingsbeuncoveredwasfarbetterthantocoverthemup，andtheludicrouseffecttotheoutwardeyevanishedbeforethebetterprinciplewhichreasonasserted，thenthemanwasperceivedtobeafoolwhodirectstheshaftsofhisridiculeatanyothersightbutthatoffollyandvice，orseriouslyinclinestoweighthebeautifulbyanyotherstandardbutthatofthegood。

Verytrue，hereplied。

First，then，whetherthequestionistobeputinjestorinearnest，letuscometoanunderstandingaboutthenatureofwoman：Isshecapableofsharingeitherwhollyorpartiallyintheactionsofmen，ornotatall？Andistheartofwaroneofthoseartsinwhichshecanorcannotshare？Thatwillbethebestwayofcommencingtheenquiry，andwillprobablyleadtothefairestconclusion。

Thatwillbemuchthebestway。

Shallwetaketheothersidefirstandbeginbyarguingagainstourselves；inthismannertheadversary’spositionwillnotbeundefended。

Whynot？hesaid。

Thenletusputaspeechintothemouthsofouropponents。Theywillsay：’SocratesandGlaucon，noadversaryneedconvictyou，foryouyourselves，atthefirstfoundationoftheState，admittedtheprinciplethateverybodywastodotheoneworksuitedtohisownnature。’Andcertainly，ifIamnotmistaken，suchanadmissionwasmadebyus。’Anddonotthenaturesofmenandwomendifferverymuchindeed？’Andweshallreply：Ofcoursetheydo。Thenweshallbeasked，’Whetherthetasksassignedtomenandtowomenshouldnotbedifferent，andsuchasareagreeabletotheirdifferentnatures？’

Certainlytheyshould。’Butifso，haveyounotfallenintoaseriousinconsistencyinsayingthatmenandwomen，whosenaturesaresoentirelydifferent，oughttoperformthesameactions？’

——Whatdefencewillyoumakeforus，mygoodSir，againstanyonewhoofferstheseobjections？

Thatisnotaneasyquestiontoanswerwhenaskedsuddenly；andI

shallandIdobegofyoutodrawoutthecaseonourside。

Thesearetheobjections，Glaucon，andtherearemanyothersofalikekind，whichIforesawlongago；theymademeafraidandreluctanttotakeinhandanylawaboutthepossessionandnurtureofwomenandchildren。

ByZeus，hesaid，theproblemtobesolvedisanythingbuteasy。

Whyyes，Isaid，butthefactisthatwhenamanisoutofhisdepth，whetherhehasfallenintoalittleswimmingbathorintomid—ocean，hehastoswimallthesame。

Verytrue。