第13章

WouldthatIcould！butyoushouldregardmeratherasafollowerwhohasjusteyesenoughto，seewhatyoushowhim——thatisaboutasmuchasIamgoodfor。

Offerupaprayerwithmeandfollow。

Iwill，butyoumustshowmetheway。

Hereisnopath，Isaid，andthewoodisdarkandperplexing；

stillwemustpushon。

Letuspushon。

HereIsawsomething：Halloo！Isaid，Ibegintoperceiveatrack，andIbelievethatthequarrywillnotescape。

Goodnews，hesaid。

Truly，Isaid，wearestupidfellows。

Whyso？

Why，mygoodsir，atthebeginningofourenquiry，agesago，therewasjusticetumblingoutatourfeet，andweneversawher；nothingcouldbemoreridiculous。Likepeoplewhogoaboutlookingforwhattheyhaveintheirhands——thatwasthewaywithus——welookednotatwhatwewereseeking，butatwhatwasfaroffinthedistance；andtherefore，Isuppose，wemissedher。

Whatdoyoumean？

Imeantosaythatinrealityforalongtimepastwehavebeentalkingofjustice，andhavefailedtorecogniseher。

Igrowimpatientatthelengthofyourexordium。

Wellthen，tellme，Isaid，whetherIamrightornot：YouremembertheoriginalprinciplewhichwewerealwayslayingdownatthefoundationoftheState，thatonemanshouldpractiseonethingonly，thethingtowhichhisnaturewasbestadapted；——nowjusticeisthisprincipleorapartofit。

Yes，weoftensaidthatonemanshoulddoonethingonly。

Further，weaffirmedthatjusticewasdoingone’sownbusiness，andnotbeingabusybody；wesaidsoagainandagain，andmanyothershavesaidthesametous。

Yes，wesaidso。

Thentodoone’sownbusinessinacertainwaymaybeassumedtobejustice。CanyoutellmewhenceIderivethisinference？

Icannot，butIshouldliketobetold。

BecauseIthinkthatthisistheonlyvirtuewhichremainsintheStatewhentheothervirtuesoftemperanceandcourageandwisdomareabstracted；and，thatthisistheultimatecauseandconditionoftheexistenceofallofthem，andwhileremaininginthemisalsotheirpreservative；andweweresayingthatifthethreewerediscoveredbyus，justicewouldbethefourthorremainingone。

Thatfollowsofnecessity。

IfweareaskedtodeterminewhichofthesefourqualitiesbyitspresencecontributesmosttotheexcellenceoftheState，whethertheagreementofrulersandsubjects，orthepreservationinthesoldiersoftheopinionwhichthelawordainsaboutthetruenatureofdangers，orwisdomandwatchfulnessintherulers，orwhetherthisotherwhichIammentioning，andwhichisfoundinchildrenandwomen，slaveandfreeman，artisan，ruler，subject，——thequality，Imean，ofeveryonedoinghisownwork，andnotbeingabusybody，wouldclaimthepalm——thequestionisnotsoeasilyanswered。

Certainly，hereplied，therewouldbeadifficultyinsayingwhich。

ThenthepowerofeachindividualintheStatetodohisownworkappearstocompetewiththeotherpoliticalvirtues，wisdom，temperance，courage。

Yes，hesaid。

Andthevirtuewhichentersintothiscompetitionisjustice？

Exactly。

Letuslookatthequestionfromanotherpointofview：ArenottherulersinaStatethosetowhomyouwouldentrusttheofficeofdeterminingsuitsatlaw？

Certainly。

Andaresuitsdecidedonanyothergroundbutthatamanmayneithertakewhatisanother’s，norbedeprivedofwhatishisown？

Yes；thatistheirprinciple。

Whichisajustprinciple？

Yes。

Thenonthisviewalsojusticewillbeadmittedtobethehavinganddoingwhatisaman’sown，andbelongstohim？

Verytrue。

Think，now，andsaywhetheryouagreewithmeornot。Supposeacarpentertobedoingthebusinessofacobbler，oracobblerofacarpenter；andsupposethemtoexchangetheirimplementsortheirduties，orthesamepersontobedoingtheworkofboth，orwhateverbethechange；doyouthinkthatanygreatharmwouldresulttotheState？

Notmuch。

Butwhenthecobbleroranyothermanwhomnaturedesignedtobeatrader，havinghisheartliftedupbywealthorstrengthorthenumberofhisfollowers，oranylikeadvantage，attemptstoforcehiswayintotheclassofwarriors，orawarriorintothatoflegislatorsandguardians，forwhichheisunfitted，andeithertotaketheimplementsorthedutiesoftheother；orwhenonemanistrader，legislator，andwarriorallinone，thenIthinkyouwillagreewithmeinsayingthatthisinterchangeandthismeddlingofonewithanotheristheruinoftheState。

Mosttrue。

Seeingthen，Isaid，thattherearethreedistinctclasses，anymeddlingofonewithanother，orthechangeofoneintoanother，isthegreatestharmtotheState，andmaybemostjustlytermedevil—doing？

Precisely。

Andthegreatestdegreeofevil—doingtoone’sowncitywouldbetermedbyyouinjustice？

Certainly。

Thisthenisinjustice；andontheotherhandwhenthetrader，theauxiliary，andtheguardianeachdotheirownbusiness，thatisjustice，andwillmakethecityjust。

Iagreewithyou。

Wewillnot，Isaid，beover—positiveasyet；butif，ontrial，thisconceptionofjusticebeverifiedintheindividualaswellasintheState，therewillbenolongeranyroomfordoubt；ifitbenotverified，wemusthaveafreshenquiry。Firstletuscompletetheoldinvestigation，whichwebegan，asyouremember，undertheimpressionthat，ifwecouldpreviouslyexaminejusticeonthelargerscale，therewouldbelessdifficultyindiscerningherintheindividual。ThatlargerexampleappearedtobetheState，andaccordinglyweconstructedasgoodaoneaswecould，knowingwellthatinthegoodStatejusticewouldbefound。Letthediscoverywhichwemadebenowappliedtotheindividual——iftheyagree，weshallbesatisfied；or，iftherebeadifferenceintheindividual，wewillcomebacktotheStateandhaveanothertrialofthetheory。

Thefrictionofthetwowhenrubbedtogethermaypossiblystrikealightinwhichjusticewillshineforth，andthevisionwhichisthenrevealedwewillfixinoursouls。

Thatwillbeinregularcourse；letusdoasyousay。

Iproceededtoask：Whentwothings，agreaterandless，arecalledbythesamename，aretheylikeorunlikeinsofarastheyarecalledthesame？

Like，hereplied。

Thejustmanthen，ifweregardtheideaofjusticeonly，willbelikethejustState？

Hewill。

AndaStatewasthoughtbyustobejustwhenthethreeclassesintheStateseverallydidtheirownbusiness；andalsothoughttobetemperateandvaliantandwisebyreasonofcertainotheraffectionsandqualitiesofthesesameclasses？

True，hesaid。

Andsooftheindividual；wemayassumethathehasthesamethreeprinciplesinhisownsoulwhicharefoundintheState；andhemayberightlydescribedinthesameterms，becauseheisaffectedinthesamemanner？

Certainly，hesaid。

Oncemorethen，Omyfriend，wehavealighteduponaneasyquestion——whetherthesoulhasthesethreeprinciplesornot？

Aneasyquestion！Nay，rather，Socrates，theproverbholdsthathardisthegood。

Verytrue，Isaid；andIdonotthinkthatthemethodwhichweareemployingisatalladequatetotheaccuratesolutionofthisquestion；thetruemethodisanotherandalongerone。Stillwemayarriveatasolutionnotbelowthelevelofthepreviousenquiry。

Maywenotbesatisfiedwiththat？hesaid；——underthecircumstances，Iamquitecontent。

Itoo，Ireplied，shallbeextremelywellsatisfied。

Thenfaintnotinpursuingthespeculation，hesaid。

Mustwenotacknowledge，Isaid，thatineachofustherearethesameprinciplesandhabitswhichthereareintheState；andthatfromtheindividualtheypassintotheState？——howelsecantheycomethere？Takethequalityofpassionorspirit；——itwouldberidiculoustoimaginethatthisquality，whenfoundinStates，isnotderivedfromtheindividualswhoaresupposedtopossessit，e。g。theThracians，Scythians，andingeneralthenorthernnations；andthesamemaybesaidoftheloveofknowledge，whichisthespecialcharacteristicofourpartoftheworld，oroftheloveofmoney，whichmay，withequaltruth，beattributedtothePhoeniciansandEgyptians。

Exactlyso，hesaid。

Thereisnodifficultyinunderstandingthis。

Nonewhatever。

Butthequestionisnotquitesoeasywhenweproceedtoaskwhethertheseprinciplesarethreeorone；whether，thatistosay，welearnwithonepartofournature，areangrywithanother，andwithathirdpartdesirethesatisfactionofournaturalappetites；orwhetherthewholesoulcomesintoplayineachsortofaction——todeterminethatisthedifficulty。

Yes，hesaid；thereliesthedifficulty。

Thenletusnowtryanddeterminewhethertheyarethesameordifferent。

Howcanwe？heasked。

Irepliedasfollows：Thesamethingclearlycannotactorbeacteduponinthesamepartorinrelationtothesamethingatthesametime，incontraryways；andthereforewheneverthiscontradictionoccursinthingsapparentlythesame，weknowthattheyarereallynotthesame，butdifferent。

Good。

Forexample，Isaid，canthesamethingbeatrestandinmotionatthesametimeinthesamepart？

Impossible。

Still，Isaid，letushaveamoreprecisestatementofterms，lestweshouldhereafterfalloutbytheway。Imaginethecaseofamanwhoisstandingandalsomovinghishandsandhishead，andsupposeapersontosaythatoneandthesamepersonisinmotionandatrestatthesamemoment—tosuchamodeofspeechweshouldobject，andshouldrathersaythatonepartofhimisinmotionwhileanotherisatrest。

Verytrue。

Andsupposetheobjectortorefinestillfurther，andtodrawthenicedistinctionthatnotonlypartsoftops，butwholetops，whentheyspinroundwiththeirpegsfixedonthespot，areatrestandinmotionatthesametime（andhemaysaythesameofanythingwhichrevolvesinthesamespot），hisobjectionwouldnotbeadmittedbyus，becauseinsuchcasesthingsarenotatrestandinmotioninthesamepartsofthemselves；weshouldrathersaythattheyhavebothanaxisandacircumference，andthattheaxisstandsstill，forthereisnodeviationfromtheperpendicular；andthatthecircumferencegoesround。Butif，whilerevolving，theaxisinclineseithertotherightorleft，forwardsorbackwards，theninnopointofviewcantheybeatrest。

Thatisthecorrectmodeofdescribingthem，hereplied。

Thennoneoftheseobjectionswillconfuseus，orinclineustobelievethatthesamethingatthesametime，inthesamepartorinrelationtothesamething，canactorbeacteduponincontraryways。

Certainlynot，accordingtomywayofthinking。

Yet，Isaid，thatwemaynotbecompelledtoexamineallsuchobjections，andproveatlengththattheyareuntrue，letusassumetheirabsurdity，andgoforwardontheunderstandingthathereafter，ifthisassumptionturnouttobeuntrue，alltheconsequenceswhichfollowshallbewithdrawn。

Yes，hesaid，thatwillbethebestway。

Well，Isaid，wouldyounotallowthatassentanddissent，desireandaversion，attractionandrepulsion，areallofthemopposites，whethertheyareregardedasactiveorpassive（forthatmakesnodifferenceinthefactoftheiropposition）？

Yes，hesaid，theyareopposites。

Well，Isaid，andhungerandthirst，andthedesiresingeneral，andagainwillingandwishing，——alltheseyouwouldrefertotheclassesalreadymentioned。Youwouldsay——wouldyounot？——thatthesoulofhimwhodesiresisseekingaftertheobjectofhisdesires；orthatheisdrawingtohimselfthethingwhichhewishestopossess：oragain，whenapersonwantsanythingtobegivenhim，hismind，longingfortherealisationofhisdesires，intimateshiswishtohaveitbyanodofassent，asifhehadbeenaskedaquestion？

Verytrue。

Andwhatwouldyousayofunwillingnessanddislikeandtheabsenceofdesire；shouldnotthesebereferredtotheoppositeclassofrepulsionandrejection？

Certainly。

Admittingthistobetrueofdesiregenerally，letussupposeaparticularclassofdesires，andoutofthesewewillselecthungerandthirst，astheyaretermed，whicharethemostobviousofthem？

Letustakethatclass，hesaid。

Theobjectofoneisfood，andoftheotherdrink？

Yes。

Andherecomesthepoint：isnotthirstthedesirewhichthesoulhasofdrink，andofdrinkonly；notofdrinkqualifiedbyanythingelse；forexample，warmorcold，ormuchorlittle，or，inaword，drinkofanyparticularsort：butifthethirstbeaccompaniedbyheat，thenthedesireisofcolddrink；or，ifaccompaniedbycold，thenofwarmdrink；or，ifthethirstbeexcessive，thenthedrinkwhichisdesiredwillbeexcessive；or，ifnotgreat，thequantityofdrinkwillalsobesmall：butthirstpureandsimplewilldesiredrinkpureandsimple，whichisthenaturalsatisfactionofthirst，asfoodisofhunger？

Yes，hesaid；thesimpledesireis，asyousay，ineverycaseofthesimpleobject，andthequalifieddesireofthequalifiedobject。

Buthereaconfusionmayarise；andIshouldwishtoguardagainstanopponentstartingupandsayingthatnomandesiresdrinkonly，butgooddrink，orfoodonly，butgoodfood；forgoodistheuniversalobjectofdesire，andthirstbeingadesire，willnecessarilybethirstaftergooddrink；andthesameistrueofeveryotherdesire。

Yes，hereplied，theopponentmighthavesomethingtosay。

NeverthelessIshouldstillmaintain，thatofrelativessomehaveaqualityattachedtoeithertermoftherelation；othersaresimpleandhavetheircorrelativessimple。

Idonotknowwhatyoumean。

Well，youknowofcoursethatthegreaterisrelativetotheless？

Certainly。

Andthemuchgreatertothemuchless？

Yes。

Andthesometimegreatertothesometimeless，andthegreaterthatistobetothelessthatistobe？

Certainly，hesaid。

Andsoofmoreandless，andofothercorrelativeterms，suchasthedoubleandthehalf，oragain，theheavierandthelighter，theswifterandtheslower；andofhotandcold，andofanyotherrelatives；——isnotthistrueofallofthem？

Yes。

Anddoesnotthesameprincipleholdinthesciences？Theobjectofscienceisknowledge（assumingthattobethetruedefinition），buttheobjectofaparticularscienceisaparticularkindofknowledge；Imean，forexample，thatthescienceofhouse—buildingisakindofknowledgewhichisdefinedanddistinguishedfromotherkindsandisthereforetermedarchitecture。

Certainly。

Becauseithasaparticularqualitywhichnootherhas？

Yes。

Andithasthisparticularqualitybecauseithasanobjectofaparticularkind；andthisistrueoftheotherartsandsciences？

Yes。

Now，then，ifIhavemademyselfclear，youwillunderstandmyoriginalmeaninginwhatIsaidaboutrelatives。Mymeaningwas，thatifonetermofarelationistakenalone，theotheristakenalone；ifonetermisqualified，theotherisalsoqualified。Idonotmeantosaythatrelativesmaynotbedisparate，orthatthescienceofhealthishealthy，orofdiseasenecessarilydiseased，orthatthesciencesofgoodandevilarethereforegoodandevil；butonlythat，whenthetermscienceisnolongerusedabsolutely，buthasaqualifiedobjectwhichinthiscaseisthenatureofhealthanddisease，itbecomesdefined，andishencecallednotmerelyscience，butthescienceofmedicine。

Iquiteunderstand，andIthinkasyoudo。

Wouldyounotsaythatthirstisoneoftheseessentiallyrelativeterms，havingclearlyarelation——

Yes，thirstisrelativetodrink。

Andacertainkindofthirstisrelativetoacertainkindofdrink；

butthirsttakenaloneisneitherofmuchnorlittle，norofgoodnorbad，norofanyparticularkindofdrink，butofdrinkonly？

Certainly。

Thenthesoulofthethirstyone，insofarasheisthirsty，desiresonlydrink；forthisheyearnsandtriestoobtainit？

Thatisplain。

Andifyousupposesomethingwhichpullsathirstysoulawayfromdrink，thatmustbedifferentfromthethirstyprinciplewhichdrawshimlikeabeasttodrink；for，asweweresaying，thesamethingcannotatthesametimewiththesamepartofitselfactincontrarywaysaboutthesame。

Impossible。

Nomorethanyoucansaythatthehandsofthearcherpushandpullthebowatthesametime，butwhatyousayisthatonehandpushesandtheotherpulls。

Exactlyso，hereplied。

Andmightamanbethirsty，andyetunwillingtodrink？

Yes，hesaid，itconstantlyhappens。

Andinsuchacasewhatisonetosay？Wouldyounotsaythattherewassomethinginthesoulbiddingamantodrink，andsomethingelseforbiddinghim，whichisotherandstrongerthantheprinciplewhichbidshim？

Ishouldsayso。

Andtheforbiddingprincipleisderivedfromreason，andthatwhichbidsandattractsproceedsfrompassionanddisease？

Clearly。

Thenwemayfairlyassumethattheyaretwo，andthattheydifferfromoneanother；theonewithwhichmanreasons，wemaycalltherationalprincipleofthesoul，theother，withwhichhelovesandhungersandthirstsandfeelstheflutteringsofanyotherdesire，maybetermedtheirrationalorappetitive，theallyofsundrypleasuresandsatisfactions？

Yes，hesaid，wemayfairlyassumethemtobedifferent。

Thenletusfinallydeterminethattherearetwoprinciplesexistinginthesoul。Andwhatofpassion，orspirit？Isitathird，orakintooneofthepreceding？

Ishouldbeinclinedtosay——akintodesire。

Well，Isaid，thereisastorywhichIremembertohaveheard，andinwhichIputfaith。Thestoryis，thatLeontius，thesonofAglaion，cominguponedayfromthePiraeus，underthenorthwallontheoutside，observedsomedeadbodieslyingonthegroundattheplaceofexecution。Hefeltadesiretoseethem，andalsoadreadandabhorrenceofthem；foratimehestruggledandcoveredhiseyes，butatlengththedesiregotthebetterofhim；andforcingthemopen，heranuptothedeadbodies，saying，Look，yewretches，takeyourfillofthefairsight。

Ihaveheardthestorymyself，hesaid。

Themoralofthetaleis，thatangerattimesgoestowarwithdesire，asthoughtheyweretwodistinctthings。

Yes；thatisthemeaning，hesaid。

Andaretherenotmanyothercasesinwhichweobservethatwhenaman’sdesiresviolentlyprevailoverhisreason，herevileshimself，andisangryattheviolencewithinhim，andthatinthisstruggle，whichislikethestruggleoffactionsinaState，hisspiritisonthesideofhisreason；——butforthepassionateorspiritedelementtotakepartwiththedesireswhenreasonthatsheshouldnotbeopposed，isasortofthingwhichthingwhichIbelievethatyouneverobservedoccurringinyourself，nor，asIshouldimagine，inanyoneelse？

Certainlynot。

Supposethatamanthinkshehasdoneawrongtoanother，thenoblerheisthelessableishetofeelindignantatanysuffering，suchashunger，orcold，oranyotherpainwhichtheinjuredpersonmayinflictuponhim——thesehedeemstobejust，and，asIsay，hisangerrefusestobeexcitedbythem。

True，hesaid。

Butwhenhethinksthatheisthesuffererofthewrong，thenheboilsandchafes，andisonthesideofwhathebelievestobejustice；andbecausehesuffershungerorcoldorotherpainheisonlythemoredeterminedtopersevereandconquer。Hisnoblespiritwillnotbequelleduntilheeitherslaysorisslain；oruntilhehearsthevoiceoftheshepherd，thatis，reason，biddinghisdogbarknomore。

Theillustrationisperfect，hereplied；andinourState，asweweresaying，theauxiliariesweretobedogs，andtohearthevoiceoftherulers，whoaretheirshepherds。

Iperceive，Isaid，thatyouquiteunderstandme；thereis，however，afurtherpointwhichIwishyoutoconsider。

Whatpoint？

Yourememberthatpassionorspiritappearedatfirstsighttobeakindofdesire，butnowweshouldsayquitethecontrary；forintheconflictofthesoulspiritisarrayedonthesideoftherationalprinciple。

Mostassuredly。

Butafurtherquestionarises：Ispassiondifferentfromreasonalso，oronlyakindofreason；inwhichlattercase，insteadofthreeprinciplesinthesoul，therewillonlybetwo，therationalandtheconcupiscent；orrather，astheStatewascomposedofthreeclasses，traders，auxiliaries，counsellors，somaytherenotbeintheindividualsoulathirdelementwhichispassionorspirit，andwhennotcorruptedbybadeducationisthenaturalauxiliaryofreasonYes，hesaid，theremustbeathird。

Yes，Ireplied，ifpassion，whichhasalreadybeenshowntobedifferentfromdesire，turnoutalsotobedifferentfromreason。

Butthatiseasilyproved：——Wemayobserveeveninyoungchildrenthattheyarefullofspiritalmostassoonastheyareborn，whereassomeofthemneverseemtoattaintotheuseofreason，andmostofthemlateenough。

Excellent，Isaid，andyoumayseepassionequallyinbruteanimals，whichisafurtherproofofthetruthofwhatyouaresaying。AndwemayoncemoreappealtothewordsofHomer，whichhavebeenalreadyquotedbyus，Hesmotehisbreast，andthusrebukedhissoul，forinthisverseHomerhasclearlysupposedthepowerwhichreasonsaboutthebetterandworsetobedifferentfromtheunreasoningangerwhichisrebukedbyit。

Verytrue，hesaid。