第7章

Andthereisanotherclassofservants，whoareintellectuallyhardlyonthelevelofcompanionship；stilltheyhaveplentyofbodilystrengthforlabour，whichaccordinglytheysell，andarecalled，ifI

donotmistake，hirelings，hirebeingthenamewhichisgiventothepriceoftheirlabour。

True。

Thenhirelingswillhelptomakeupourpopulation？

Yes。

Andnow，Adeimantus，isourStatematuredandperfected？

Ithinkso。

Where，then，isjustice，andwhereisinjustice，andinwhatpartoftheStatedidtheyspringup？

Probablyinthedealingsofthesecitizenswithoneanother。

cannotimaginethattheyaremorelikelytobefoundanywhereelse。

Idaresaythatyouarerightinyoursuggestion，Isaid；wehadbetterthinkthematterout，andnotshrinkfromtheenquiry。

Letusthenconsider，firstofall，whatwillbetheirwayoflife，nowthatwehavethusestablishedthem。Willtheynotproducecorn，andwine，andclothes，andshoes，andbuildhousesforthemselves？Andwhentheyarehoused，theywillwork，insummer，commonly，strippedandbarefoot，butinwintersubstantiallyclothedandshod。Theywillfeedonbarley—mealandflourofwheat，bakingandkneadingthem，makingnoblecakesandloaves；thesetheywillserveuponamatofreedsoroncleanleaves，themselvesrecliningthewhileuponbedsstrewnwithyewormyrtle。Andtheyandtheirchildrenwillfeast，drinkingofthewinewhichtheyhavemade，wearinggarlandsontheirheads，andhymningthepraisesofthegods，inhappyconversewithoneanother。Andtheywilltakecarethattheirfamiliesdonotexceedtheirmeans；havinganeyetopovertyorwar。

SOCRATES—GLAUCON

But，saidGlaucon，interposing，youhavenotgiventhemarelishtotheirmeal。

True，Ireplied，Ihadforgotten；ofcoursetheymusthavearelish—salt，andolives，andcheese，andtheywillboilrootsandherbssuchascountrypeopleprepare；foradessertweshallgivethemfigs，andpeas，andbeans；andtheywillroastmyrtle—berriesandacornsatthefire，drinkinginmoderation。Andwithsuchadiettheymaybeexpectedtoliveinpeaceandhealthtoagoodoldage，andbequeathasimilarlifetotheirchildrenafterthem。

Yes，Socrates，hesaid，andifyouwereprovidingforacityofpigs，howelsewouldyoufeedthebeasts？

Butwhatwouldyouhave，Glaucon？Ireplied。

Why，hesaid，youshouldgivethemtheordinaryconveniencesoflife。Peoplewhoaretobecomfortableareaccustomedtolieonsofas，anddineofftables，andtheyshouldhavesaucesandsweetsinthemodernstyle。

Yes，Isaid，nowIunderstand：thequestionwhichyouwouldhavemeconsideris，notonlyhowaState，buthowaluxuriousStateiscreated；andpossiblythereisnoharminthis，forinsuchaStateweshallbemorelikelytoseehowjusticeandinjusticeoriginate。InmyopinionthetrueandhealthyconstitutionoftheStateistheonewhichIhavedescribed。ButifyouwishalsotoseeaStateatfeverheat，Ihavenoobjection。ForIsuspectthatmanywillnotbesatisfiedwiththesimplerwayofwayTheywillbeforaddingsofas，andtables，andotherfurniture；alsodainties，andperfumes，andincense，andcourtesans，andcakes，allthesenotofonesortonly，butineveryvariety；wemustgobeyondthenecessariesofwhichIwasatfirstspeaking，suchashouses，andclothes，andshoes：theartsofthepainterandtheembroidererwillhavetobesetinmotion，andgoldandivoryandallsortsofmaterialsmustbeprocured。

True，hesaid。

Thenwemustenlargeourborders；fortheoriginalhealthyStateisnolongersufficient。Nowwillthecityhavetofillandswellwithamultitudeofcallingswhicharenotrequiredbyanynaturalwant；

suchasthewholetribeofhuntersandactors，ofwhomonelargeclasshavetodowithformsandcolours；anotherwillbethevotariesofmusic——poetsandtheirattendanttrainofrhapsodists，players，dancers，contractors；alsomakersofdiverskindsofarticles，includingwomen’sdresses。Andweshallwantmoreservants。Willnottutorsbealsoinrequest，andnurseswetanddry，tirewomenandbarbers，aswellasconfectionersandcooks；andswineherds，too，whowerenotneededandthereforehadnoplaceintheformereditionofourState，butareneedednow？Theymustnotbeforgotten：andtherewillbeanimalsofmanyotherkinds，ifpeopleeatthem。

Certainly。

Andlivinginthiswayweshallhavemuchgreaterneedofphysiciansthanbefore？

Muchgreater。

Andthecountrywhichwasenoughtosupporttheoriginalinhabitantswillbetoosmallnow，andnotenough？

Quitetrue。

Thenasliceofourneighbours’landwillbewantedbyusforpastureandtillage，andtheywillwantasliceofours，if，likeourselves，theyexceedthelimitofnecessity，andgivethemselvesuptotheunlimitedaccumulationofwealth？

That，Socrates，willbeinevitable。

Andsoweshallgotowar，Glaucon。Shallwenot？

Mostcertainly，hereplied。

Thenwithoutdeterminingasyetwhetherwardoesgoodorharm，thusmuchwemayaffirm，thatnowwehavediscoveredwartobederivedfromcauseswhicharealsothecausesofalmostalltheevilsinStates，privateaswellaspublic。

Undoubtedly。

AndourStatemustoncemoreenlarge；andthistimethewillbenothingshortofawholearmy，whichwillhavetogooutandfightwiththeinvadersforallthatwehave，aswellasforthethingsandpersonswhomweweredescribingabove。

Why？hesaid；aretheynotcapableofdefendingthemselves？

No，Isaid；notifwewererightintheprinciplewhichwasacknowledgedbyallofuswhenwewereframingtheState：theprinciple，asyouwillremember，wasthatonemancannotpractisemanyartswithsuccess。

Verytrue，hesaid。

Butisnotwaranart？

Certainly。

Andanartrequiringasmuchattentionasshoemaking？

Quitetrue。

Andtheshoemakerwasnotallowedbyustobehusbandman，oraweaver，abuilder——inorderthatwemighthaveourshoeswellmade；

buttohimandtoeveryotherworkerwasassignedoneworkforwhichhewasbynaturefitted，andatthathewastocontinueworkingallhislifelongandatnoother；hewasnottoletopportunitiesslip，andthenhewouldbecomeagoodworkman。Nownothingcanbemoreimportantthanthattheworkofasoldiershouldbewelldone。Butiswaranartsoeasilyacquiredthatamanmaybeawarriorwhoisalsoahusbandman，orshoemaker，orotherartisan；althoughnooneintheworldwouldbeagooddiceordraughtplayerwhomerelytookupthegameasarecreation，andhadnotfromhisearliestyearsdevotedhimselftothisandnothingelse？

Notoolswillmakeamanaskilledworkman，ormasterofdefence，norbeofanyusetohimwhohasnotlearnedhowtohandlethem，andhasneverbestowedanyattentionuponthem。Howthenwillhewhotakesupashieldorotherimplementofwarbecomeagoodfighterallinaday，whetherwithheavy—armedoranyotherkindoftroops？

Yes，hesaid，thetoolswhichwouldteachmentheirownusewouldbebeyondprice。

Andthehigherthedutiesoftheguardian，Isaid，themoretime，andskill，andart，andapplicationwillbeneededbyhim？

Nodoubt，hereplied。

Willhenotalsorequirenaturalaptitudeforhiscalling？

Certainly。

Thenitwillbeourdutytoselect，ifwecan，natureswhicharefittedforthetaskofguardingthecity？

Itwill。

Andtheselectionwillbenoeasymatter，Isaid；butwemustbebraveanddoourbest。

Wemust。

Isnotthenobleyouthverylikeawell—breddoginrespectofguardingandwatching？

Whatdoyoumean？

Imeanthatbothofthemoughttobequicktosee，andswifttoovertaketheenemywhentheyseehim；andstrongtooif，whentheyhavecaughthim，theyhavetofightwithhim。

Allthesequalities，hereplied，willcertainlyberequiredbythem。

Well，andyourguardianmustbebraveifheistofightwell？

Certainly。

Andishelikelytobebravewhohasnospirit，whetherhorseordogoranyotheranimal？Haveyouneverobservedhowinvincibleandunconquerableisspiritandhowthepresenceofitmakesthesoulofanycreaturetobeabsolutelyfearlessandindomitable？

Ihave。

Thennowwehaveaclearnotionofthebodilyqualitieswhicharerequiredintheguardian。

True。

Andalsoofthementalones；hissoulistobefullofspirit？

Yes。

Butarenotthesespiritednaturesapttobesavagewithoneanother，andwitheverybodyelse？

Adifficultybynomeanseasytoovercome，hereplied。

Whereas，Isaid，theyoughttobedangeroustotheirenemies，andgentletotheirfriends；ifnot，theywilldestroythemselveswithoutwaitingfortheirenemiestodestroythem。

True，hesaid。

Whatistobedonethen？Isaid；howshallwefindagentlenaturewhichhasalsoagreatspirit，fortheoneisthecontradictionoftheother？

True。

Hewillnotbeagoodguardianwhoiswantingineitherofthesetwoqualities；andyetthecombinationofthemappearstobeimpossible；

andhencewemustinferthattobeagoodguardianisimpossible。

Iamafraidthatwhatyousayistrue，hereplied。

HerefeelingperplexedIbegantothinkoverwhathadpreceded。Myfriend，Isaid，nowonderthatweareinaperplexity；forwehavelostsightoftheimagewhichwehadbeforeus。

Whatdoyoumean？hesaid。

Imeantosaythattheredoexistnaturesgiftedwiththoseoppositequalities。

Andwheredoyoufindthem？

Manyanimals，Ireplied，furnishexamplesofthem；ourfriendthedogisaverygoodone：youknowthatwell—breddogsareperfectlygentletotheirfamiliarsandacquaintances，andthereversetostrangers。

Yes，Iknow。

Thenthereisnothingimpossibleoroutoftheorderofnatureinourfindingaguardianwhohasasimilarcombinationofqualities？

Certainlynot。

Wouldnothewhoisfittedtobeaguardian，besidesthespiritednature，needtohavethequalitiesofaphilosopher？

Idonotapprehendyourmeaning。

ThetraitofwhichIamspeaking，Ireplied，maybealsoseeninthedog，andisremarkableintheanimal。

Whattrait？

Why，adog，wheneverheseesastranger，isangry；whenanacquaintance，hewelcomeshim，althoughtheonehasneverdonehimanyharm，northeotheranygood。Didthisneverstrikeyouascurious？

Thematterneverstruckmebefore；butIquiterecognisethetruthofyourremark。

Andsurelythisinstinctofthedogisverycharming；——yourdogisatruephilosopher。

Why？

Why，becausehedistinguishesthefaceofafriendandofanenemyonlybythecriterionofknowingandnotknowing。Andmustnotananimalbealoveroflearningwhodetermineswhathelikesanddislikesbythetestofknowledgeandignorance？

Mostassuredly。

Andisnottheloveoflearningtheloveofwisdom，whichisphilosophy？

Theyarethesame，hereplied。

Andmaywenotsayconfidentlyofmanalso，thathewhoislikelytobegentletohisfriendsandacquaintances，mustbynaturebealoverofwisdomandknowledge？

Thatwemaysafelyaffirm。

ThenhewhoistobeareallygoodandnobleguardianoftheStatewillrequiretouniteinhimselfphilosophyandspiritandswiftnessandstrength？

Undoubtedly。

Thenwehavefoundthedesirednatures；andnowthatwehavefoundthem，howaretheytoberearedandeducated？Isnotthisenquirywhichmaybeexpectedtothrowlightonthegreaterenquirywhichisourfinalend——HowdojusticeandinjusticegrowupinStates？forwedonotwanteithertoomitwhatistothepointortodrawouttheargumenttoaninconvenientlength。

SOCRATES—ADEIMANTUS

Adeimantusthoughtthattheenquirywouldbeofgreatservicetous。

Then，Isaid，mydearfriend，thetaskmustnotbegivenup，evenifsomewhatlong。

Certainlynot。

Comethen，andletuspassaleisurehourinstory—telling，andourstoryshallbetheeducationofourheroes。

Byallmeans。

Andwhatshallbetheireducation？Canwefindabetterthanthetraditionalsort？——andthishastwodivisions，gymnasticforthebody，andmusicforthesoul。

True。

Shallwebegineducationwithmusic，andgoontogymnasticafterwards？

Byallmeans。

Andwhenyouspeakofmusic，doyouincludeliteratureornot？

Ido。

Andliteraturemaybeeithertrueorfalse？

Yes。

Andtheyoungshouldbetrainedinbothkinds，andwebeginwiththefalse？

Idonotunderstandyourmeaning，hesaid。

Youknow，Isaid，thatwebeginbytellingchildrenstorieswhich，thoughnotwhollydestituteoftruth，areinthemainfictitious；

andthesestoriesaretoldthemwhentheyarenotofanagetolearngymnastics。

Verytrue。

ThatwasmymeaningwhenIsaidthatwemustteachmusicbeforegymnastics。

Quiteright，hesaid。

Youknowalsothatthebeginningisthemostimportantpartofanywork，especiallyinthecaseofayoungandtenderthing；forthatisthetimeatwhichthecharacterisbeingformedandthedesiredimpressionismorereadilytaken。

Quitetrue。

Andshallwejustcarelesslyallowchildrentohearanycasualtaleswhichmaybedevisedbycasualpersons，andtoreceiveintotheirmindsideasforthemostparttheveryoppositeofthosewhichweshouldwishthemtohavewhentheyaregrownup？

Wecannot。

Thenthefirstthingwillbetoestablishacensorshipofthewritersoffiction，andletthecensorsreceiveanytaleoffictionwhichisgood，andrejectthebad；andwewilldesiremothersandnursestotelltheirchildrentheauthorisedonesonly。Letthemfashionthemindwithsuchtales，evenmorefondlythantheymouldthebodywiththeirhands；butmostofthosewhicharenowinusemustbediscarded。

Ofwhattalesareyouspeaking？hesaid。

Youmayfindamodelofthelesserinthegreater，Isaid；fortheyarenecessarilyofthesametype，andthereisthesamespiritinbothofthem。

Verylikely，hereplied；butIdonotasyetknowwhatyouwouldtermthegreater。

Those，Isaid，whicharenarratedbyHomerandHesiod，andtherestofthepoets，whohaveeverbeenthegreatstory—tellersofmankind。

Butwhichstoriesdoyoumean，hesaid；andwhatfaultdoyoufindwiththem？

Afaultwhichismostserious，Isaid；thefaultoftellingalie，and，whatismore，abadlie。

Butwhenisthisfaultcommitted？

Wheneveranerroneousrepresentationismadeofthenatureofgodsandheroes，——aswhenapainterpaintsaportraitnothavingtheshadowofalikenesstotheoriginal。

Yes，hesaid，thatsortofthingiscertainlyveryblamable；butwhatarethestorieswhichyoumean？

Firstofall，Isaid，therewasthatgreatestofalllies，inhighplaces，whichthepoettoldaboutUranus，andwhichwasabadlietoo，——ImeanwhatHesiodsaysthatUranusdid，andhowCronusretaliatedonhim。ThedoingsofCronus，andthesufferingswhichinturnhissoninflicteduponhim，eveniftheyweretrue，oughtcertainlynottobelightlytoldtoyoungandthoughtlesspersons；ifpossible，theyhadbetterbeburiedinsilence。Butifthereisanabsolutenecessityfortheirmention，achosenfewmightheartheminamystery，andtheyshouldsacrificenotacommon[Eleusinian]pig，butsomehugeandunprocurablevictim；andthenthenumberofthehearerswillbeveryfewindeed。

Why，yes，saidhe，thosestoriesareextremelyobjectionable。

Yes，Adeimantus，theyarestoriesnottoberepeatedinourState；

theyoungmanshouldnotbetoldthatincommittingtheworstofcrimesheisfarfromdoinganythingoutrageous；andthatevenifhechastiseshisfatherwhendoeswrong，inwhatevermanner，hewillonlybefollowingtheexampleofthefirstandgreatestamongthegods。

Ientirelyagreewithyou，hesaid；inmyopinionthosestoriesarequiteunfittoberepeated。

Neither，ifwemeanourfutureguardianstoregardthehabitofquarrellingamongthemselvesasofallthingsthebasest，shouldanywordbesaidtothemofthewarsinheaven，andoftheplotsandfightingsofthegodsagainstoneanother，fortheyarenottrue。

No，weshallnevermentionthebattlesofthegiants，orletthembeembroideredongarments；andweshallbesilentabouttheinnumerableotherquarrelsofgodsandheroeswiththeirfriendsandrelatives。Iftheywouldonlybelieveuswewouldtellthemthatquarrellingisunholy，andthatneveruptothistimehastherebeenany，quarrelbetweencitizens；thisiswhatoldmenandoldwomenshouldbeginbytellingchildren；andwhentheygrowup，thepoetsalsoshouldbetoldtocomposefortheminasimilarspirit。ButthenarrativeofHephaestusbindingHerehismother，orhowonanotheroccasionZeussenthimflyingfortakingherpartwhenshewasbeingbeaten，andallthebattlesofthegodsinHomer——thesetalesmustnotbeadmittedintoourState，whethertheyaresupposedtohaveanallegoricalmeaningornot。Forayoungpersoncannotjudgewhatisallegoricalandwhatisliteral；anythingthathereceivesintohismindatthatageislikelytobecomeindelibleandunalterable；andthereforeitismostimportantthatthetaleswhichtheyoungfirsthearshouldbemodelsofvirtuousthoughts。

Thereyouareright，hereplied；butifanyoneaskswherearesuchmodelstobefoundandofwhattalesareyouspeaking——howshallweanswerhim？

Isaidtohim，YouandI，Adeimantus，atthismomentarenotpoets，butfoundersofaState：nowthefoundersofaStateoughttoknowthegeneralformsinwhichpoetsshouldcasttheirtales，andthelimitswhichmustbeobservedbythem，buttomakethetalesisnottheirbusiness。

Verytrue，hesaid；butwhataretheseformsoftheologywhichyoumean？

Somethingofthiskind，Ireplied：——Godisalwaystoberepresentedashetrulyis，whateverbethesortofpoetry，epic，lyricortragic，inwhichtherepresentationisgiven。

Right。

Andishenottrulygood？andmusthenotberepresentedassuch？

Certainly。

Andnogoodthingishurtful？

No，indeed。

Andthatwhichisnothurtfulhurtsnot？

Certainlynot。

Andthatwhichhurtsnotdoesnoevil？

No。

Andcanthatwhichdoesnoevilbeacauseofevil？

Impossible。

Andthegoodisadvantageous？

Yes。

Andthereforethecauseofwell—being？

Yes。

Itfollowsthereforethatthegoodisnotthecauseofallthings，butofthegoodonly？

Assuredly。

ThenGod，ifhebegood，isnottheauthorofallthings，asthemanyassert，butheisthecauseofafewthingsonly，andnotofmostthingsthatoccurtomen。Forfewarethegoodsofhumanlife，andmanyaretheevils，andthegoodistobeattributedtoGodalone；

oftheevilsthecausesaretobesoughtelsewhere，andnotinhim。

Thatappearstometobemosttrue，hesaid。

ThenwemustnotlistentoHomerortoanyotherpoetwhoisguiltyofthefollyofsayingthattwocasksLieatthethresholdofZeus，fulloflots，oneofgood，theotherofevillots，andthathetowhomZeusgivesamixtureofthetwoSometimesmeetswithevilfortune，atothertimeswithgood；

butthathetowhomisgiventhecupofunmingledill，Himwildhungerdriveso’erthebeauteousearth。

AndagainZeus，whoisthedispenserofgoodandeviltous。

Andifanyoneassertsthattheviolationofoathsandtreaties，whichwasreallytheworkofPandarus，wasbroughtaboutbyAtheneandZeus，orthatthestrifeandcontentionofthegodswasinstigatedbyThemisandZeus，heshallnothaveourapproval；neitherwillweallowouryoungmentohearthewordsofAeschylus，thatGodplantsguiltamongmenwhenhedesiresutterlytodestroyahouse。

AndifapoetwritesofthesufferingsofNiobe——thesubjectofthetragedyinwhichtheseiambicversesoccur——orofthehouseofPelops，oroftheTrojanwaroronanysimilartheme，eitherwemustnotpermithimtosaythatthesearetheworksofGod，oriftheyareofGod，hemustdevisesomeexplanationofthemsuchasweareseeking；hemustsaythatGoddidwhatwasjustandright，andtheywerethebetterforbeingpunished；butthatthosewhoarepunishedaremiserable，andthatGodistheauthoroftheirmisery——thepoetisnottobepermittedtosay；thoughhemaysaythatthewickedaremiserablebecausetheyrequiretobepunished，andarebenefitedbyreceivingpunishmentfromGod；butthatGodbeinggoodistheauthorofeviltoanyoneistobestrenuouslydenied，andnottobesaidorsungorheardinverseorprosebyanyonewhetheroldoryounginanywell—orderedcommonwealth。Suchafictionissuicidal，ruinous，impious。

Iagreewithyou，hereplied，andamreadytogivemyassenttothelaw。

Letthisthenbeoneofourrulesandprinciplesconcerningthegods，towhichourpoetsandreciterswillbeexpectedtoconform——thatGodisnottheauthorofallthings，butofgoodonly。