第8章
Thatwilldo，hesaid。
Andwhatdoyouthinkofasecondprinciple？ShallIaskyouwhetherGodisamagician，andofanaturetoappearinsidiouslynowinoneshape，andnowinanother——sometimeshimselfchangingandpassingintomanyforms，sometimesdeceivinguswiththesemblanceofsuchtransformations；orisheoneandthesameimmutablyfixedinhisownproperimage？
Icannotansweryou，hesaid，withoutmorethought。
Well，Isaid；butifwesupposeachangeinanything，thatchangemustbeeffectedeitherbythethingitself，orbysomeotherthing？
Mostcertainly。
Andthingswhichareattheirbestarealsoleastliabletobealteredordiscomposed；forexample，whenhealthiestandstrongest，thehumanframeisleastliabletobeaffectedbymeatsanddrinks，andtheplantwhichisinthefullestvigouralsosuffersleastfromwindsortheheatofthesunoranysimilarcauses。
Ofcourse。
Andwillnotthebravestandwisestsoulbeleastconfusedorderangedbyanyexternalinfluence？
True。
Andthesameprinciple，asIshouldsuppose，appliestoallcompositethings——furniture，houses，garments；whengoodandwellmade，theyareleastalteredbytimeandcircumstances。
Verytrue。
Theneverythingwhichisgood，whethermadebyartornature，orboth，isleastliabletosufferchangefromwithout？
True。
ButsurelyGodandthethingsofGodareineverywayperfect？
Ofcoursetheyare。
Thenhecanhardlybecompelledbyexternalinfluencetotakemanyshapes？
Hecannot。
Butmayhenotchangeandtransformhimself？
Clearly，hesaid，thatmustbethecaseifheischangedatall。
Andwillhethenchangehimselfforthebetterandfairer，orfortheworseandmoreunsightly？
Ifhechangeatallhecanonlychangefortheworse，forwecannotsupposehimtobedeficienteitherinvirtueorbeauty。
Verytrue，Adeimantus；butthen，wouldanyone，whetherGodorman，desiretomakehimselfworse？
Impossible。
ThenitisimpossiblethatGodshouldeverbewillingtochange；
being，asissupposed，thefairestandbestthatisconceivable，everygodremainsabsolutelyandforeverinhisownform。
Thatnecessarilyfollows，hesaid，inmyjudgment。
Then，Isaid，mydearfriend，letnoneofthepoetstellusthatThegods，takingthedisguiseofstrangersfromotherlands，walkupanddowncitiesinallsortsofforms；
andletnooneslanderProteusandThetis，neitherletanyone，eitherintragedyorinanyotherkindofpoetry，introduceHeredisguisedinthelikenessofapriestessaskinganalmsForthelife—givingdaughtersofInachustheriverofArgos；
——letushavenomoreliesofthatsort。Neithermustwehavemothersundertheinfluenceofthepoetsscaringtheirchildrenwithabadversionofthesemyths——tellinghowcertaingods，astheysay，’Goaboutbynightinthelikenessofsomanystrangersandindiversforms’；butletthemtakeheedlesttheymakecowardsoftheirchildren，andatthesametimespeakblasphemyagainstthegods。
Heavenforbid，hesaid。
Butalthoughthegodsarethemselvesunchangeable，stillbywitchcraftanddeceptiontheymaymakeusthinkthattheyappearinvariousforms？
Perhaps，hereplied。
Well，butcanyouimaginethatGodwillbewillingtolie，whetherinwordordeed，ortoputforthaphantomofhimself？
Icannotsay，hereplied。
Doyounotknow，Isaid，thatthetruelie，ifsuchanexpressionmaybeallowed，ishatedofgodsandmen？
Whatdoyoumean？hesaid。
Imeanthatnooneiswillinglydeceivedinthatwhichisthetruestandhighestpartofhimself，oraboutthetruestandhighestmatters；there，aboveall，heismostafraidofaliehavingpossessionofhim。
Still，hesaid，Idonotcomprehendyou。
Thereasonis，Ireplied，thatyouattributesomeprofoundmeaningtomywords；butIamonlysayingthatdeception，orbeingdeceivedoruninformedaboutthehighestrealitiesinthehighestpartofthemselves，whichisthesoul，andinthatpartofthemtohaveandtoholdthelie，iswhatmankindleastlike；——that，Isay，iswhattheyutterlydetest。
Thereisnothingmorehatefultothem。
And，asIwasjustnowremarking，thisignoranceinthesoulofhimwhoisdeceivedmaybecalledthetruelie；forthelieinwordsisonlyakindofimitationandshadowyimageofapreviousaffectionofthesoul，notpureunadulteratedfalsehood。AmInotright？
Perfectlyright。
Thetruelieishatednotonlybythegods，butalsobymen？
Yes。
Whereasthelieinwordsisincertaincasesusefulandnothateful；
indealingwithenemies——thatwouldbeaninstance；oragain，whenthosewhomwecallourfriendsinafitofmadnessorillusionaregoingtodosomeharm，thenitisusefulandisasortofmedicineorpreventive；alsointhetalesofmythology，ofwhichwewerejustnowspeaking——becausewedonotknowthetruthaboutancienttimes，wemakefalsehoodasmuchliketruthaswecan，andsoturnittoaccount。
Verytrue，hesaid。
ButcananyofthesereasonsapplytoGod？Canwesupposethatheisignorantofantiquity，andthereforehasrecoursetoinvention？
Thatwouldberidiculous，hesaid。
ThenthelyingpoethasnoplaceinourideaofGod？
Ishouldsaynot。
Orperhapshemaytellaliebecauseheisafraidofenemies？
Thatisinconceivable。
Buthemayhavefriendswhoaresenselessormad？
ButnomadorsenselesspersoncanbeafriendofGod。
ThennomotivecanbeimaginedwhyGodshouldlie？
Nonewhatever。
Thenthesuperhumananddivineisabsolutelyincapableoffalsehood？
Yes。
ThenisGodperfectlysimpleandtruebothinwordanddeed；hechangesnot；hedeceivesnot，eitherbysignorword，bydreamorwakingvision。
Yourthoughts，hesaid，arethereflectionofmyown。
Youagreewithmethen，Isaid，thatthisisthesecondtypeorforminwhichweshouldwriteandspeakaboutdivinethings。Thegodsarenotmagicianswhotransformthemselves，neitherdotheydeceivemankindinanyway。
Igrantthat。
Then，althoughweareadmirersofHomer，wedonotadmirethelyingdreamwhichZeussendstoAgamemnon；neitherwillwepraisetheversesofAeschylusinwhichThetissaysthatApolloathernuptialsWascelebratinginsongherfairprogenywhosedaysweretohelong，andtoknownosickness。Andwhenhehadspokenofmylotasinallthingsblessedofheavenheraisedanoteoftriumphandcheeredmysoul。AndIthoughtthatthewordofPhoebusbeingdivineandfullofprophecy，wouldnotfail。Andnowhehimselfwhoutteredthestrain，hewhowaspresentatthebanquet，andwhosaidthis——heitiswhohasslainmyson。
Thesearethekindofsentimentsaboutthegodswhichwillarouseouranger；andhewhouttersthemshallberefusedachorus；neithershallweallowteacherstomakeuseofthemintheinstructionoftheyoung，meaning，aswedo，thatourguardians，asfarasmencanbe，shouldbetrueworshippersofthegodsandlikethem。
Ientirelyagree，besaid，intheseprinciples，andpromisetomakethemmylaws。
BOOKIII
SOCRATES—ADEIMANTUS
SUCHthen，Isaid，areourprinciplesoftheology——sometalesaretobetold，andothersarenottobetoldtoourdisciplesfromtheiryouthupwards，ifwemeanthemtohonourthegodsandtheirparents，andtovaluefriendshipwithoneanother。
Yes；andIthinkthatourprinciplesareright，hesaid。
Butiftheyaretobecourageous，musttheynotlearnotherlessonsbesidesthese，andlessonsofsuchakindaswilltakeawaythefearofdeath？Cananymanbecourageouswhohasthefearofdeathinhim？
Certainlynot，hesaid。
Andcanhebefearlessofdeath，orwillhechoosedeathinbattleratherthandefeatandslavery，whobelievestheworldbelowtoberealandterrible？
Impossible。
Thenwemustassumeacontroloverthenarratorsofthisclassoftalesaswellasovertheothers，andbegthemnotsimplytobutrathertocommendtheworldbelow，intimatingtothemthattheirdescriptionsareuntrue，andwilldoharmtoourfuturewarriors。
Thatwillbeourduty，hesaid。
Then，Isaid，weshallhavetoobliteratemanyobnoxiouspassages，beginningwiththeverses，Iwouldratherheaserfonthelandofapoorandportionlessmanthanruleoverallthedeadwhohavecometonought。
Wemustalsoexpungetheverse，whichtellsushowPlutofeared，Lestthemansionsgrimandsqualidwhichthegodsabhorshouldheseenbothofmortalsandimmortals。
Andagain：
Oheavens！verilyinthehouseofHadesthereissoulandghostlyformbutnomindatall！
AgainofTiresias：——
[TohimevenafterdeathdidPersephonegrantmind，]thathealoneshouldbewise；buttheothersoulsareflittingshades。
Again：——
ThesoulflyingfromthelimbshadgonetoHades，lamentngherfate，leavingmanhoodandyouth。
Again：——
Andthesoul，withshrillingcry，passedlikesmokebeneaththeearth。
And，——
Asbatsinhollowofmysticcavern，wheneveranyofthehasdroppedoutofthestringandfallsfromtherock，flyshrillingandclingtooneanother，sodidtheywithshrillingcryholdtogetherastheymoved。
AndwemustbegHomerandtheotherpoetsnottobeangryifwestrikeouttheseandsimilarpassages，notbecausetheyareunpoetical，orunattractivetothepopularear，butbecausethegreaterthepoeticalcharmofthem，thelessaretheymeetfortheearsofboysandmenwhoaremeanttobefree，andwhoshouldfearslaverymorethandeath。
Undoubtedly。
Alsoweshallhavetorejectalltheterribleandappallingnamesdescribetheworldbelow——CocytusandStyx，ghostsundertheearth，andsaplessshades，andanysimilarwordsofwhichtheverymentioncausesashuddertopassthroughtheinmostsoulofhimwhohearsthem。Idonotsaythatthesehorriblestoriesmaynothaveauseofsomekind；butthereisadangerthatthenervesofourguardiansmayberenderedtooexcitableandeffeminatebythem。
Thereisarealdanger，hesaid。
Thenwemusthavenomoreofthem。
True。
Anotherandanoblerstrainmustbecomposedandsungbyus。
Clearly。
Andshallweproceedtogetridoftheweepingsandwailingsoffamousmen？
Theywillgowiththerest。
Butshallweberightingettingridofthem？Reflect：ourprincipleisthatthegoodmanwillnotconsiderdeathterribletoanyothergoodmanwhoishiscomrade。
Yes；thatisourprinciple。
Andthereforehewillnotsorrowforhisdepartedfriendasthoughhehadsufferedanythingterrible？
Hewillnot。
Suchanone，aswefurthermaintain，issufficientforhimselfandhisownhappiness，andthereforeisleastinneedofothermen。
True，hesaid。
Andforthisreasonthelossofasonorbrother，orthedeprivationoffortune，istohimofallmenleastterrible。
Assuredly。
Andthereforehewillbeleastlikelytolament，andwillbearwiththegreatestequanimityanymisfortuneofthissortwhichmaybefallhim。
Yes，hewillfeelsuchamisfortunefarlessthananother。
Thenweshallberightingettingridofthelamentationsoffamousmen，andmakingthemovertowomen（andnoteventowomenwhoaregoodforanything），ortomenofabasersort，thatthosewhoarebeingeducatedbyustobethedefendersoftheircountrymayscorntodothelike。
Thatwillbeveryright。
ThenwewilloncemoreentreatHomerandtheotherpoetsnottodepictAchilles，whoisthesonofagoddess，firstlyingonhisside，thenonhisback，andthenonhisface；thenstartingupandsailinginafrenzyalongtheshoresofthebarrensea；nowtakingthesootyashesinbothhishandsandpouringthemoverhishead，orweepingandwailinginthevariousmodeswhichHomerhasdelineated。NorshouldhedescribePriamthekinsmanofthegodsasprayingandbeseeching，Rollinginthedirt，callingeachmanloudlybyhisname。
Stillmoreearnestlywillwebegofhimatalleventsnottointroducethegodslamentingandsaying，Alas！mymisery！Alas！thatIboretheharvesttomysorrow。
Butifhemustintroducethegods，atanyratelethimnotdaresocompletelytomisrepresentthegreatestofthegods，astomakehimsay——
Oheavens！withmyeyesverilyIbeholdadearfriendofminechasedroundandroundthecity，andmyheartissorrowful。
Oragain：——
WoeismethatIamfatedtohaveSarpedon，dearestofmentome，subduedatthehandsofPatroclusthesonofMenoetius。
Forif，mysweetAdeimantus，ouryouthseriouslylistentosuchunworthyrepresentationsofthegods，insteadoflaughingatthemastheyought，hardlywillanyofthemdeemthathehimself，beingbutaman，canbedishonouredbysimilaractions；neitherwillherebukeanyinclinationwhichmayariseinhismindtosayanddothelike。
Andinsteadofhavinganyshameorself—control，hewillbealwayswhiningandlamentingonslightoccasions。
Yes，hesaid，thatismosttrue。
Yes，Ireplied；butthatsurelyiswhatoughtnottobe，astheargumenthasjustprovedtous；andbythatproofwemustabideuntilitisdisprovedbyabetter。
Itoughtnottobe。
Neitheroughtourguardianstobegiventolaughter。Forafitoflaughterwhichhasbeenindulgedtoexcessalmostalwaysproducesaviolentreaction。
SoIbelieve。
Thenpersonsofworth，evenifonlymortalmen，mustnotberepresentedasovercomebylaughter，andstilllessmustsucharepresentationofthegodsbeallowed。
Stilllessofthegods，asyousay，hereplied。
ThenweshallnotsuffersuchanexpressiontobeusedaboutthegodsasthatofHomerwhenhedescribeshowInextinguishablelaughteraroseamongtheblessedgods，whentheysawHephaestusbustlingaboutthemansion。
Onyourviews，wemustnotadmitthem。
Onmyviews，ifyouliketofatherthemonme；thatwemustnotadmitthemiscertain。
Again，truthshouldbehighlyvalued；if，asweweresaying，alieisuselesstothegods，andusefulonlyasamedicinetomen，thentheuseofsuchmedicinesshouldberestrictedtophysicians；privateindividualshavenobusinesswiththem。
Clearlynot，hesaid。
Thenifanyoneatallistohavetheprivilegeoflying，therulersoftheStateshouldbethepersons；andthey，intheirdealingseitherwithenemiesorwiththeirowncitizens，maybeallowedtolieforthepublicgood。Butnobodyelseshouldmeddlewithanythingofthekind；andalthoughtherulershavethisprivilege，foraprivatemantolietotheminreturnistobedeemedamoreheinousfaultthanforthepatientorthepupilofagymnasiumnottospeakthetruthabouthisownbodilyillnessestothephysicianortothetrainer，orforasailornottotellthecaptainwhatishappeningabouttheshipandtherestofthecrew，andhowthingsaregoingwithhimselforhisfellowsailors。
Mosttrue，hesaid。
If，then，therulercatchesanybodybesidehimselflyingintheState，Anyofthecraftsmen，whetherhepriestorphysicianorcarpenter。
hewillpunishhimforintroducingapracticewhichisequallysubversiveanddestructiveofshiporState。
Mostcertainly，hesaid，ifourideaoftheStateisevercarriedout。
Inthenextplaceouryouthmustbetemperate？
Certainly。
Arenotthechiefelementsoftemperance，speakinggenerally，obediencetocommandersandself—controlinsensualpleasures？
True。
ThenweshallapprovesuchlanguageasthatofDiomedeinHomer，Friend，sitstillandobeymyword，andtheverseswhichfollow，TheGreeksmarchedbreathingprowess，……insilentaweoftheirleaders，andothersentimentsofthesamekind。
Weshall。
Whatofthisline，Oheavywithwine，whohasttheeyesofadogandtheheartofastag，andofthewordswhichfollow？Wouldyousaythatthese，oranysimilarimpertinenceswhichprivateindividualsaresupposedtoaddresstotheirrulers，whetherinverseorprose，arewellorillspoken？
Theyareillspoken。
Theymayverypossiblyaffordsomeamusement，buttheydonotconducetotemperance。Andthereforetheyarelikelytodoharmtoouryoungmen——youwouldagreewithmethere？
Yes。
Andthen，again，tomakethewisestofmensaythatnothinginhisopinionismoregloriousthanWhenthetablesarefullofbreadandmeat，andthecup—bearercarriesroundwinewhichhedrawsfromthebowlandpoursintothecups，isitfitorconducivetotemperanceforayoungmantohearsuchwords？OrtheverseThesaddestoffatesistodieandmeetdestinyfromhunger？
WhatwouldyousayagaintothetaleofZeus，who，whileothergodsandmenwereasleepandhetheonlypersonawake，laydevisingplans，butforgotthemallinamomentthroughhislust，andwassocompletelyovercomeatthesightofHerethathewouldnotevengointothehut，butwantedtoliewithherontheground，declaringthathehadneverbeeninsuchastateofrapturebefore，evenwhentheyfirstmetoneanotherWithouttheknowledgeoftheirparents；
orthatothertaleofhowHephaestus，becauseofsimilargoingson，castachainaroundAresandAphrodite？
Indeed，hesaid，Iamstronglyofopinionthattheyoughtnottohearthatsortofthing。
Butanydeedsofendurancewhicharedoneortoldbyfamousmen，thesetheyoughttoseeandhear；as，forexample，whatissaidintheverses，Hesmotehisbreast，andthusreproachedhisheart，Endure，myheart；farworsehastthouendured！
Certainly，hesaid。
Inthenextplace，wemustnotletthembereceiversofgiftsorloversofmoney。
Certainlynot。
NeithermustwesingtothemofGiftspersuadinggods，andpersuadingreverendkings。
NeitherisPhoenix，thetutorofAchilles，tobeapprovedordeemedtohavegivenhispupilgoodcounselwhenhetoldhimthatheshouldtakethegiftsoftheGreeksandassistthem；butthatwithoutagiftheshouldnotlayasidehisanger。NeitherwillwebelieveoracknowledgeAchilleshimselftohavebeensuchaloverofmoneythathetookAgamemnon’sorthatwhenhehadreceivedpaymentherestoredthedeadbodyofHector，butthatwithoutpaymenthewasunwillingtodoso。
Undoubtedly，hesaid，thesearenotsentimentswhichcanbeapproved。
LovingHomerasIdo，IhardlyliketosaythatinattributingthesefeelingstoAchilles，orinbelievingthattheyaretrulytohim，heisguiltyofdownrightimpiety。AslittlecanIbelievethenarrativeofhisinsolencetoApollo，wherehesays，Thouhastwrongedme，Ofar—darter，mostabominableofdeities。
VerilyIwouldheevenwiththee，ifIhadonlythepower，orhisinsubordinationtotheriver—god，onwhosedivinityheisreadytolayhands；orhisofferingtothedeadPatroclusofhisownhair，whichhadbeenpreviouslydedicatedtotheotherriver—godSpercheius，andthatheactuallyperformedthisvow；orthathedraggedHectorroundthetombofPatroclus，andslaughteredthecaptivesatthepyre；
ofallthisIcannotbelievethathewasguilty，anymorethanIcanallowourcitizenstobelievethathe，thewiseCheiron’spupil，thesonofagoddessandofPeleuswhowasthegentlestofmenandthirdindescentfromZeus，wassodisorderedinhiswitsastobeatonetimetheslaveoftwoseeminglyinconsistentpassions，meanness，notuntaintedbyavarice，combinedwithoverweeningcontemptofgodsandmen。
Youarequiteright，hereplied。
Andletusequallyrefusetobelieve，orallowtoberepeated，thetaleofTheseussonofPoseidon，orofPeirithoussonofZeus，goingforthastheydidtoperpetrateahorridrape；orofanyotherheroorsonofagoddaringtodosuchimpiousanddreadfulthingsastheyfalselyascribetotheminourday：andletusfurthercompelthepoetstodeclareeitherthattheseactswerenotdonebythem，orthattheywerenotthesonsofgods；——bothinthesamebreaththeyshallnotbepermittedtoaffirm。Wewillnothavethemtryingtopersuadeouryouththatthegodsaretheauthorsofevil，andthatheroesarenobetterthanmen—sentimentswhich，asweweresaying，areneitherpiousnortrue，forwehavealreadyprovedthatevilcannotcomefromthegods。
Assuredlynot。
Andfurthertheyarelikelytohaveabadeffectonthosewhohearthem；foreverybodywillbegintoexcusehisownviceswhenheisconvincedthatsimilarwickednessesarealwaysbeingperpetratedby——
Thekindredofthegods，therelativesofZeus，whoseancestralaltar，theattarofZeus，isaloftinaironthepeakofIda，andwhohavethebloodofdeitiesyetflowingintheirveins。
Andthereforeletusputanendtosuchtales，lesttheyengenderlaxityofmoralsamongtheyoung。
Byallmeans，hereplied。
Butnowthatwearedeterminingwhatclassesofsubjectsareorarenottobespokenof，letusseewhetheranyhavebeenomittedbyus。Themannerinwhichgodsanddemigodsandheroesandtheworldbelowshouldbetreatedhasbeenalreadylaiddown。
Verytrue。
Andwhatshallwesayaboutmen？Thatisclearlytheremainingportionofoursubject。
Clearlyso。
Butwearenotinaconditiontoanswerthisquestionatpresent，myfriend。
Whynot？
Because，ifIamnotmistaken，weshallhavetosaythataboutmenpoetsandstory—tellersareguiltyofmakingthegravestmisstatementswhentheytellusthatwickedmenareoftenhappy，andthegoodmiserable；andthatinjusticeisprofitablewhenundetected，butthatjusticeisaman’sownlossandanother’sgain——thesethingsweshallforbidthemtoutter，andcommandthemtosingandsaytheopposite。
Tobesureweshall，hereplied。
ButifyouadmitthatIamrightinthis，thenIshallmaintainthatyouhaveimpliedtheprincipleforwhichwehavebeenallalongcontending。
Igrantthetruthofyourinference。
Thatsuchthingsareorarenottobesaidaboutmenisaquestionwhichwecannotdetermineuntilwehavediscoveredwhatjusticeis，andhownaturallyadvantageoustothepossessor，whetherheseemstobejustornot。
Mosttrue，hesaid。
Enoughofthesubjectsofpoetry：letusnowspeakofthestyle；andwhenthishasbeenconsidered，bothmatterandmannerwillhavebeencompletelytreated。
Idonotunderstandwhatyoumean，saidAdeimantus。
ThenImustmakeyouunderstand；andperhapsImaybemoreintelligibleifIputthematterinthisway。Youareaware，I
suppose，thatallmythologyandpoetryisanarrationofevents，eitherpast，present，ortocome？
Certainly，hereplied。