第5章
Nothingintheworld，Isaid；andifyouaresodisposedIwillaskandyoushallanswer。
Proceed。
ThenIwillrepeatthequestionwhichIaskedbefore，inorderthatourexaminationoftherelativenatureofjusticeandinjusticemaybecarriedonregularly。Astatementwasmadethatinjusticeisstrongerandmorepowerfulthanjustice，butnowjustice，havingbeenidentifiedwithwisdomandvirtue，iseasilyshowntobestrongerthaninjustice，ifinjusticeisignorance；thiscannolongerbequestionedbyanyone。ButIwanttoviewthematter，Thrasymachus，inadifferentway：Youwouldnotdenythatastatemaybeunjustandmaybeunjustlyattemptingtoenslaveotherstates，ormayhavealreadyenslavedthem，andmaybeholdingmanyoftheminsubjection？
True，hereplied；andIwilladdthebestandperfectlyunjuststatewillbemostlikelytodoso。
Iknow，Isaid，thatsuchwasyourposition；butwhatIwouldfurtherconsideris，whetherthispowerwhichispossessedbythesuperiorstatecanexistorbeexercisedwithoutjustice。
Ifyouarerightinyouview，andjusticeiswisdom，thenonlywithjustice；butifIamright，thenwithoutjustice。
Iamdelighted，Thrasymachus，toseeyounotonlynoddingassentanddissent，butmakinganswerswhicharequiteexcellent。
Thatisoutofcivilitytoyou，hereplied。
Youareverykind，Isaid；andwouldyouhavethegoodnessalsotoinformme，whetheryouthinkthatastate，oranarmy，orabandofrobbersandthieves，oranyothergangofevil—doerscouldactatalliftheyinjuredoneanother？
Noindeed，hesaid，theycouldnot。
Butiftheyabstainedfrominjuringoneanother，thentheymightacttogetherbetter？
Yes。
Andthisisbecauseinjusticecreatesdivisionsandhatredsandfighting，andjusticeimpartsharmonyandfriendship；isnotthattrue，Thrasymachus？
Iagree，hesaid，becauseIdonotwishtoquarrelwithyou。
Howgoodofyou，Isaid；butIshouldliketoknowalsowhetherinjustice，havingthistendencytoarousehatred，whereverexisting，amongslavesoramongfreemen，willnotmakethemhateoneanotherandsetthematvarianceandrenderthemincapableofcommonaction？
Certainly。
Andevenifinjusticebefoundintwoonly，willtheynotquarrelandfight，andbecomeenemiestooneanotherandtothejustTheywill。
Andsupposeinjusticeabidinginasingleperson，wouldyourwisdomsaythatshelosesorthatsheretainshernaturalpower？
Letusassumethatsheretainsherpower。
Yetisnotthepowerwhichinjusticeexercisesofsuchanaturethatwherevershetakesupherabode，whetherinacity，inanarmy，inafamily，orinanyotherbody，thatbodyis，tobeginwith，renderedincapableofunitedactionbyreasonofseditionanddistraction；
anddoesitnotbecomeitsownenemyandatvariancewithallthatopposesit，andwiththejust？Isnotthisthecase？
Yes，certainly。
Andisnotinjusticeequallyfatalwhenexistinginasingleperson；
inthefirstplacerenderinghimincapableofactionbecauseheisnotatunitywithhimself，andinthesecondplacemakinghimanenemytohimselfandthejust？Isnotthattrue，Thrasymachus？
Yes。
AndOmyfriend，Isaid，surelythegodsarejust？
Grantedthattheyare。
Butifso，theunjustwillbetheenemyofthegods，andthejustwillbetheirfriend？
Feastawayintriumph，andtakeyourfilloftheargument；Iwillnotopposeyou，lestIshoulddispleasethecompany。
Wellthen，proceedwithyouranswers，andletmehavetheremainderofmyrepast。Forwehavealreadyshownthatthejustareclearlywiserandbetterandablerthantheunjust，andthattheunjustareincapableofcommonaction；nayingatmore，thattospeakaswedidofmenwhoareevilactingatanytimevigorouslytogether，isnotstrictlytrue，foriftheyhadbeenperfectlyevil，theywouldhavelaidhandsupononeanother；butitisevidentthattheremusthavebeensomeremnantofjusticeinthem，whichenabledthemtocombine；iftherehadnotbeentheywouldhaveinjuredoneanotheraswellastheirvictims；theywerebuthalf——villainsintheirenterprises；forhadtheybeenwholevillains，andutterlyunjust，theywouldhavebeenutterlyincapableofaction。That，asI
believe，isthetruthofthematter，andnotwhatyousaidatfirst。
Butwhetherthejusthaveabetterandhappierlifethantheunjustisafurtherquestionwhichwealsoproposedtoconsider。Ithinkthattheyhave，andforthereasonswhichtohavegiven；butstillIshouldliketoexaminefurther，fornolightmatterisatstake，nothinglessthantheruleofhumanlife。
Proceed。
Iwillproceedbyaskingaquestion：Wouldyounotsaythatahorsehassomeend？
Ishould。
Andtheendoruseofahorseorofanythingwouldbethatwhichcouldnotbeaccomplished，ornotsowellaccomplished，byanyotherthing？
Idonotunderstand，hesaid。
Letmeexplain：Canyousee，exceptwiththeeye？
Certainlynot。
Orhear，exceptwiththeear？
No。
Thesethenmaybetrulysaidtobetheendsoftheseorgans？
Theymay。
Butyoucancutoffavine—branchwithadaggerorwithachisel，andinmanyotherways？
Ofcourse。
Andyetnotsowellaswithapruning—hookmadeforthepurpose？
True。
Maywenotsaythatthisistheendofapruning—hook？
Wemay。
ThennowIthinkyouwillhavenodifficultyinunderstandingmymeaningwhenIaskedthequestionwhethertheendofanythingwouldbethatwhichcouldnotbeaccomplished，ornotsowellaccomplished，byanyotherthing？
Iunderstandyourmeaning，hesaid，andassent。
Andthattowhichanendisappointedhasalsoanexcellence？NeedI
askagainwhethertheeyehasanend？
Ithas。
Andhasnottheeyeanexcellence？
Yes。
Andtheearhasanendandanexcellencealso？
True。
Andthesameistrueofallotherthings；theyhaveeachofthemanendandaspecialexcellence？
Thatisso。
Well，andcantheeyesfulfiltheirendiftheyarewantingintheirownproperexcellenceandhaveadefectinstead？
Howcanthey，hesaid，iftheyareblindandcannotsee？
Youmeantosay，iftheyhavelosttheirproperexcellence，whichissight；butIhavenotarrivedatthatpointyet。Iwouldratheraskthequestionmoregenerally，andonlyenquirewhetherthethingswhichfulfiltheirendsfulfilthembytheirownproperexcellence，andfalloffulfillingthembytheirowndefect？
Certainly，hereplied。
Imightsaythesameoftheears；whendeprivedoftheirownproperexcellencetheycannotfulfiltheirend？
True。
Andthesameobservationwillapplytoallotherthings？
Iagree。
Well；andhasnotthesoulanendwhichnothingelsecanfulfil？forexample，tosuperintendandcommandanddeliberateandthelike。Arenotthesefunctionspropertothesoul，andcantheyrightlybeassignedtoanyother？
Tonoother。
Andisnotlifetobereckonedamongtheendsofthesoul？
Assuredly，hesaid。
Andhasnotthesoulanexcellencealso？
Yes。
Andcansheorcanshenotfulfilherownendswhendeprivedofthatexcellence？
Shecannot。
Thenanevilsoulmustnecessarilybeanevilrulerandsuperintendent，andthegoodsoulagoodruler？
Yes，necessarily。
Andwehaveadmittedthatjusticeistheexcellenceofthesoul，andinjusticethedefectofthesoul？
Thathasbeenadmitted。
Thenthejustsoulandthejustmanwilllivewell，andtheunjustmanwillliveill？
Thatiswhatyourargumentproves。
Andhewholiveswellisblessedandhappy，andhewholivesillthereverseofhappy？
Certainly。
Thenthejustishappy，andtheunjustmiserable？
Sobeit。
Buthappinessandnotmiseryisprofitable。
Ofcourse。
Then，myblessedThrasymachus，injusticecanneverbemoreprofitablethanjustice。
Letthis，Socrates，hesaid，beyourentertainmentattheBendidea。
ForwhichIamindebtedtoyou，Isaid，nowthatyouhavegrowngentletowardsmeandhaveleftoffscolding。Nevertheless，Ihavenotbeenwellentertained；butthatwasmyownfaultandnotyours。Asanepicuresnatchesatasteofeverydishwhichissuccessivelybroughttotable，henothavingallowedhimselftimetoenjoytheonebefore，sohaveIgonefromonesubjecttoanotherwithouthavingdiscoveredwhatIsoughtatfirst，thenatureofjustice。I
leftthatenquiryandturnedawaytoconsiderwhetherjusticeisvirtueandwisdomorevilandfolly；andwhentherearoseafurtherquestionaboutthecomparativeadvantagesofjusticeandinjustice，Icouldnotrefrainfrompassingontothat。AndtheresultofthewholediscussionhasbeenthatIknownothingatall。ForIknownotwhatjusticeis，andthereforeIamnotlikelytoknowwhetheritisorisnotavirtue，norcanIsaywhetherthejustmanishappyorunhappy。
BOOKII
SOCRATES—GLAUCON
WITHthesewordsIwasthinkingthatIhadmadeanendofthediscussion；buttheend，intruth，provedtobeonlyabeginning。
ForGlaucon，whoisalwaysthemostpugnaciousofmen，wasdissatisfiedatThrasymachus’retirement；hewantedtohavethebattleout。Sohesaidtome：Socrates，doyouwishreallytopersuadeus，oronlytoseemtohavepersuadedus，thattobejustisalwaysbetterthantobeunjust？
Ishouldwishreallytopersuadeyou，Ireplied，ifIcould。
Thenyoucertainlyhavenotsucceeded。Letmeaskyounow：——Howwouldyouarrangegoods——aretherenotsomewhichwewelcomefortheirownsakes，andindependentlyoftheirconsequences，as，forexample，harmlesspleasuresandenjoyments，whichdelightusatthetime，althoughnothingfollowsfromthem？
Iagreeinthinkingthatthereissuchaclass，Ireplied。
Istherenotalsoasecondclassofgoods，suchasknowledge，sight，health，whicharedesirablenotonlyinthemselves，butalsofortheirresults？
Certainly，Isaid。
Andwouldyounotrecognizeathirdclass，suchasgymnastic，andthecareofthesick，andthephysician’sart；alsothevariouswaysofmoney—making——thesedousgoodbutweregardthemasdisagreeable；
andnoonewouldchoosethemfortheirownsakes，butonlyforthesakeofsomerewardorresultwhichflowsfromthem？
Thereis，Isaid，thisthirdclassalso。Butwhydoyouask？
BecauseIwanttoknowinwhichofthethreeclassesyouwouldplacejustice？
Inthehighestclass，Ireplied，——amongthosegoodswhichhewhowouldbehappydesiresbothfortheirownsakeandforthesakeoftheirresults。
Thenthemanyareofanothermind；theythinkthatjusticeistobereckonedinthetroublesomeclass，amonggoodswhicharetobepursuedforthesakeofrewardsandofreputation，butinthemselvesaredisagreeableandrathertobeavoided。
Iknow，Isaid，thatthisistheirmannerofthinking，andthatthiswasthethesiswhichThrasymachuswasmaintainingjustnow，whenhecensuredjusticeandpraisedinjustice。ButIamtoostupidtobeconvincedbyhim。
Iwish，hesaid，thatyouwouldhearmeaswellashim，andthenI
shallseewhetheryouandIagree。ForThrasymachusseemstome，likeasnake，tohavebeencharmedbyyourvoicesoonerthanheoughttohavebeen；buttomymindthenatureofjusticeandinjusticehavenotyetbeenmadeclear。Settingasidetheirrewardsandresults，Iwanttoknowwhattheyareinthemselves，andhowtheyinwardlyworkinthesoul。Ifyou，please，then，IwillrevivetheargumentofThrasymachus。AndfirstIwillspeakofthenatureandoriginofjusticeaccordingtothecommonviewofthem。Secondly，Iwillshowthatallmenwhopractisejusticedosoagainsttheirwill，ofnecessity，butnotasagood。Andthirdly，Iwillarguethatthereisreasoninthisview，forthelifeoftheunjustisafterallbetterfarthanthelifeofthejust——ifwhattheysayistrue，Socrates，sinceImyselfamnotoftheiropinion。ButstillIacknowledgethatI
amperplexedwhenIhearthevoicesofThrasymachusandmyriadsofothersdinninginmyears；and，ontheotherhand，Ihaveneveryetheardthesuperiorityofjusticetoinjusticemaintainedbyanyoneinasatisfactoryway。Iwanttohearjusticepraisedinrespectofitself；thenIshallbesatisfied，andyouarethepersonfromwhomIthinkthatIammostlikelytohearthis；andthereforeIwillpraisetheunjustlifetotheutmostofmypower，andmymannerofspeakingwillindicatethemannerinwhichIdesiretohearyoutoopraisingjusticeandcensuringinjustice。Willyousaywhetheryouapproveofmyproposal？
IndeedIdo；norcanIimagineanythemeaboutwhichamanofsensewouldoftenerwishtoconverse。
Iamdelighted，hereplied，tohearyousayso，andshallbeginbyspeaking，asIproposed，ofthenatureandoriginofjustice。
GLAUCON
Theysaythattodoinjusticeis，bynature，good；tosufferinjustice，evil；butthattheevilisgreaterthanthegood。Andsowhenmenhavebothdoneandsufferedinjusticeandhavehadexperienceofboth，notbeingabletoavoidtheoneandobtaintheother，theythinkthattheyhadbetteragreeamongthemselvestohaveneither；
hencethereariselawsandmutualcovenants；andthatwhichisordainedbylawistermedbythemlawfulandjust。Thistheyaffirmtobetheoriginandnatureofjustice；——itisameanorcompromise，betweenthebestofall，whichistodoinjusticeandnotbepunished，andtheworstofall，whichistosufferinjusticewithoutthepowerofretaliation；andjustice，beingatamiddlepointbetweenthetwo，istoleratednotasagood，butasthelesserevil，andhonouredbyreasonoftheinabilityofmentodoinjustice。Fornomanwhoisworthytobecalledamanwouldeversubmittosuchanagreementifhewereabletoresist；hewouldbemadifhedid。Suchisthereceivedaccount，Socrates，ofthenatureandoriginofjustice。
Nowthatthosewhopractisejusticedosoinvoluntarilyandbecausetheyhavenotthepowertobeunjustwillbestappearifweimaginesomethingofthiskind：havinggivenbothtothejustandtheunjustpowertodowhattheywill，letuswatchandseewhitherdesirewillleadthem；thenweshalldiscoverintheveryactthejustandunjustmantobeproceedingalongthesameroad，followingtheirinterest，whichallnaturesdeemtobetheirgood，andareonlydivertedintothepathofjusticebytheforceoflaw。ThelibertywhichwearesupposingmaybemostcompletelygiventothemintheformofsuchapowerasissaidtohavebeenpossessedbyGygestheancestorofCroesustheLydian。Accordingtothetradition，GygeswasashepherdintheserviceofthekingofLydia；therewasagreatstorm，andanearthquakemadeanopeningintheearthattheplacewherehewasfeedinghisflock。Amazedatthesight，hedescendedintotheopening，where，amongothermarvels，hebeheldahollowbrazenhorse，havingdoors，atwhichhestoopingandlookinginsawadeadbodyofstature，asappearedtohim，morethanhuman，andhavingnothingonbutagoldring；thishetookfromthefingerofthedeadandreascended。Nowtheshepherdsmettogether，accordingtocustom，thattheymightsendtheirmonthlyreportabouttheflockstotheking；intotheirassemblyhecamehavingtheringonhisfinger，andashewassittingamongthemhechancedtoturnthecolletoftheringinsidehishand，wheninstantlyhebecameinvisibletotherestofthecompanyandtheybegantospeakofhimasifhewerenolongerpresent。Hewasastonishedatthis，andagaintouchingtheringheturnedthecolletoutwardsandreappeared；hemadeseveraltrialsofthering，andalwayswiththesameresult—whenheturnedthecolletinwardshebecameinvisible，whenoutwardshereappeared。Whereuponhecontrivedtobechosenoneofthemessengerswhoweresenttothecourt；whereassoonashearrivedheseducedthequeen，andwithherhelpconspiredagainstthekingandslewhim，andtookthekingdom。Supposenowthatthereweretwosuchmagicrings，andthejustputononeofthemandtheunjusttheother；，nomancanbeimaginedtobeofsuchanironnaturethathewouldstandfastinjustice。Nomanwouldkeephishandsoffwhatwasnothisownwhenhecouldsafelytakewhathelikedoutofthemarket，orgointohousesandliewithanyoneathispleasure，orkillorreleasefromprisonwhomhewould，andinallrespectsbelikeaGodamongmen。
Thentheactionsofthejustwouldbeastheactionsoftheunjust；
theywouldbothcomeatlasttothesamepoint。Andthiswemaytrulyaffirmtobeagreatproofthatamanisjust，notwillinglyorbecausehethinksthatjusticeisanygoodtohimindividually，butofnecessity，forwhereveranyonethinksthathecansafelybeunjust，thereheisunjust。Forallmenbelieveintheirheartsthatinjusticeisfarmoreprofitabletotheindividualthanjustice，andhewhoarguesasIhavebeensupposing，willsaythattheyareright。Ifyoucouldimagineanyoneobtainingthispowerofbecominginvisible，andneverdoinganywrongortouchingwhatwasanother’s，hewouldbethoughtbythelookers—ontobeamostwretchedidiot，althoughtheywouldpraisehimtooneanother’sfaces，andkeepupappearanceswithoneanotherfromafearthattheytoomightsufferinjustice。Enoughofthis。
Now，ifwearetoformarealjudgmentofthelifeofthejustandunjust，wemustisolatethem；thereisnootherway；andhowistheisolationtobeeffected？Ianswer：Lettheunjustmanbeentirelyunjust，andthejustmanentirelyjust；nothingistobetakenawayfromeitherofthem，andbotharetobeperfectlyfurnishedfortheworkoftheirrespectivelives。First，lettheunjustbelikeotherdistinguishedmastersofcraft；liketheskilfulpilotorphysician，whoknowsintuitivelyhisownpowersandkeepswithintheirlimits，andwho，ifhefailsatanypoint，isabletorecoverhimself。Solettheunjustmakehisunjustattemptsintherightway，andliehiddenifhemeanstobegreatinhisinjustice（hewhoisfoundoutisnobody）：forthehighestreachofinjusticeis：tobedeemedjustwhenyouarenot。ThereforeIsaythatintheperfectlyunjustmanwemustassumethemostperfectinjustice；thereistobenodeduction，butwemustallowhim，whiledoingthemostunjustacts，tohaveacquiredthegreatestreputationforjustice。Ifhehavetakenafalsestephemustbeabletorecoverhimself；hemustbeonewhocanspeakwitheffect，ifanyofhisdeedscometolight，andwhocanforcehiswaywhereforceisrequiredhiscourageandstrength，andcommandofmoneyandfriends。Andathissideletusplacethejustmaninhisnoblenessandsimplicity，wishing，asAeschylussays，tobeandnottoseemgood。Theremustbenoseeming，forifheseemtobejusthewillbehonouredandrewarded，andthenweshallnotknowwhetherheisjustforthesakeofjusticeorforthesakeofhonoursandrewards；therefore，lethimbeclothedinjusticeonly，andhavenoothercovering；andhemustbeimaginedinastateoflifetheoppositeoftheformer。Lethimbethebestofmen，andlethimbethoughttheworst；thenhewillhavebeenputtotheproof；andweshallseewhetherhewillbeaffectedbythefearofinfamyanditsconsequences。Andlethimcontinuethustothehourofdeath；beingjustandseemingtobeunjust。Whenbothhavereachedtheuttermostextreme，theoneofjusticeandtheotherofinjustice，letjudgmentbegivenwhichofthemisthehappierofthetwo。
SOCRATES—GLAUCON
Heavens！mydearGlaucon，Isaid，howenergeticallyyoupolishthemupforthedecision，firstoneandthentheother，asiftheyweretwostatues。
Idomybest，hesaid。Andnowthatweknowwhattheyarelikethereisnodifficultyintracingoutthesortoflifewhichawaitseitherofthem。ThisIwillproceedtodescribe；butasyoumaythinkthedescriptionalittletoocoarse，Iaskyoutosuppose，Socrates，thatthewordswhichfollowarenotmine。——Letmeputthemintothemouthsoftheeulogistsofinjustice：Theywilltellyouthatthejustmanwhoisthoughtunjustwillbescourged，racked，bound——willhavehiseyesburntout；and，atlast，aftersufferingeverykindofevil，hewillbeimpaled：Thenhewillunderstandthatheoughttoseemonly，andnottobe，just；thewordsofAeschylusmaybemoretrulyspokenoftheunjustthanofthejust。Fortheunjustispursuingareality；hedoesnotlivewithaviewtoappearances——hewantstobereallyunjustandnottoseemonly：——
Hismindhasasoildeepandfertile，Outofwhichspringhisprudentcounsels。
Inthefirstplace，heisthoughtjust，andthereforebearsruleinthecity；hecanmarrywhomhewill，andgiveinmarriagetowhomhewill；alsohecantradeanddealwherehelikes，andalwaystohisownadvantage，becausehehasnomisgivingsaboutinjusticeandateverycontest，whetherinpublicorprivate，hegetsthebetterofhisantagonists，andgainsattheirexpense，andisrich，andoutofhisgainshecanbenefithisfriends，andharmhisenemies；moreover，hecanoffersacrifices，anddedicategiftstothegodsabundantlyandmagnificently，andcanhonourthegodsoranymanwhomhewantstohonourinafarbetterstylethanthejust，andthereforeheislikelytobedearerthantheyaretothegods。Andthus，Socrates，godsandmenaresaidtouniteinmakingthelifeoftheunjustbetterthanthelifeofthejust。
ADEIMANTUS—SOCRATES
IwasgoingtosaysomethinginanswertoGlaucon，whenAdeimantus，hisbrother，interposed：Socrates，hesaid，youdonotsupposethatthereisnothingmoretobeurged？
Why，whatelseisthere？Ianswered。
Thestrongestpointofallhasnotbeenevenmentioned，hereplied。
Well，then，accordingtotheproverb，’Letbrotherhelpbrother’
——ifhefailsinanypartdoyouassisthim；althoughImustconfessthatGlauconhasalreadysaidquiteenoughtolaymeinthedust，andtakefrommethepowerofhelpingjustice。