第4章

Butistheartofmedicineoranyotherartfaultyordeficientinanyqualityinthesamewaythattheeyemaybedeficientinsightortheearfailofhearing，andthereforerequiresanotherarttoprovidefortheinterestsofseeingandhearing——hasartinitself，I

say，anysimilarliabilitytofaultordefect，anddoeseveryartrequireanothersupplementaryarttoprovideforitsinterests，andthatanotherandanotherwithoutend？Orhavetheartstolookonlyaftertheirowninterests？Orhavetheynoneedeitherofthemselvesorofanother？——havingnofaultsordefects，theyhavenoneedtocorrectthem，eitherbytheexerciseoftheirownartorofanyother；

theyhaveonlytoconsidertheinterestoftheirsubject—matter。Foreveryartremainspureandfaultlesswhileremainingtrue——thatistosay，whileperfectandunimpaired。Takethewordsinyourprecisesense，andtellmewhetherIamnotright。"

Yes，clearly。

Thenmedicinedoesnotconsidertheinterestofmedicine，buttheinterestofthebody？

True，hesaid。

Nordoestheartofhorsemanshipconsidertheinterestsoftheartofhorsemanship，buttheinterestsofthehorse；neitherdoanyotherartscareforthemselves，fortheyhavenoneeds；theycareonlyforthatwhichisthesubjectoftheirart？

True，hesaid。

Butsurely，Thrasymachus，theartsarethesuperiorsandrulersoftheirownsubjects？

Tothisheassentedwithagooddealofreluctance。

Then，Isaid，noscienceorartconsidersorenjoinstheinterestofthestrongerorsuperior，butonlytheinterestofthesubjectandweaker？

Hemadeanattempttocontestthispropositionalso，butfinallyacquiesced。

Then，Icontinued，nophysician，insofarasheisaphysician，considershisowngoodinwhatheprescribes，butthegoodofhispatient；forthetruephysicianisalsoarulerhavingthehumanbodyasasubject，andisnotameremoney—maker；thathasbeenadmitted？

Yes。

Andthepilotlikewise，inthestrictsenseoftheterm，isarulerofsailorsandnotameresailor？

Thathasbeenadmitted。

Andsuchapilotandrulerwillprovideandprescribefortheinterestofthesailorwhoisunderhim，andnotforhisownortheruler’sinterest？

Hegaveareluctant’Yes。’

Then，Isaid，Thrasymachus，thereisnooneinanyrulewho，insofarasheisaruler，considersorenjoinswhatisforhisowninterest，butalwayswhatisfortheinterestofhissubjectorsuitabletohisart；tothathelooks，andthataloneheconsidersineverythingwhichhesaysanddoes。

Whenwehadgottothispointintheargument，andeveryonesawthatthedefinitionofjusticehadbeencompletelyupset，Thrasymachus，insteadofreplyingtome，said：Tellme，Socrates，haveyougotanurse？

Whydoyouasksuchaquestion，Isaid，whenyououghtrathertobeanswering？

Becausesheleavesyoutosnivel，andneverwipesyournose：shehasnoteventaughtyoutoknowtheshepherdfromthesheep。

Whatmakesyousaythat？Ireplied。

Becauseyoufancythattheshepherdorneatherdfattensoftendsthesheeporoxenwithaviewtotheirowngoodandnottothegoodofhimselforhismaster；andyoufurtherimaginethattherulersofstates，iftheyaretruerulers，neverthinkoftheirsubjectsassheep，andthattheyarenotstudyingtheirownadvantagedayandnight。Oh，no；andsoentirelyastrayareyouinyourideasaboutthejustandunjustasnoteventoknowthatjusticeandthejustareinrealityanother’sgood；thatistosay，theinterestoftherulerandstronger，andthelossofthesubjectandservant；andinjusticetheopposite；fortheunjustislordoverthetrulysimpleandjust：heisthestronger，andhissubjectsdowhatisforhisinterest，andministertohishappiness，whichisveryfarfrombeingtheirown。Considerfurther，mostfoolishSocrates，thatthejustisalwaysaloserincomparisonwiththeunjust。Firstofall，inprivatecontracts：wherevertheunjustisthepartnerofthejustyouwillfindthat，whenthepartnershipisdissolved，theunjustmanhasalwaysmoreandthejustless。Secondly，intheirdealingswiththeState：whenthereisanincometax，thejustmanwillpaymoreandtheunjustlessonthesameamountofincome；andwhenthereisanythingtobereceivedtheonegainsnothingandtheothermuch。Observealsowhathappenswhentheytakeanoffice；thereisthejustmanneglectinghisaffairsandperhapssufferingotherlosses，andgettingnothingoutofthepublic，becauseheisjust；moreoverheishatedbyhisfriendsandacquaintanceforrefusingtoservetheminunlawfulways。Butallthisisreversedinthecaseoftheunjustman。

Iamspeaking，asbefore，ofinjusticeonalargescaleinwhichtheadvantageoftheunjustismoreapparent；andmymeaningwillbemostclearlyseenifweturntothathighestformofinjusticeinwhichthecriminalisthehappiestofmen，andthesufferersorthosewhorefusetodoinjusticearethemostmiserable——thatistosaytyranny，whichbyfraudandforcetakesawaythepropertyofothers，notlittlebylittlebutwholesale；comprehendinginone，thingssacredaswellasprofane，privateandpublic；forwhichactsofwrong，ifheweredetectedperpetratinganyoneofthemsingly，hewouldbepunishedandincurgreatdisgrace——theywhodosuchwronginparticularcasesarecalledrobbersoftemples，andman—stealersandburglarsandswindlersandthieves。Butwhenamanbesidestakingawaythemoneyofthecitizenshasmadeslavesofthem，then，insteadofthesenamesofreproach，heistermedhappyandblessed，notonlybythecitizensbutbyallwhohearofhishavingachievedtheconsummationofinjustice。Formankindcensureinjustice，fearingthattheymaybethevictimsofitandnotbecausetheyshrinkfromcommittingit。Andthus，asIhaveshown，Socrates，injustice，whenonasufficientscale，hasmorestrengthandfreedomandmasterythanjustice；and，asIsaidatfirst，justiceistheinterestofthestronger，whereasinjusticeisaman’sownprofitandinterest。

Thrasymachus，whenhehadthusspoken，having，likeabathman，delugedourearswithhiswords，hadamindtogoaway。Butthecompanywouldnotlethim；theyinsistedthatheshouldremainanddefendhisposition；andImyselfaddedmyownhumblerequestthathewouldnotleaveus。Thrasymachus，Isaidtohim，excellentman，howsuggestiveareyourremarks！Andareyougoingtorunawaybeforeyouhavefairlytaughtorlearnedwhethertheyaretrueornot？Istheattempttodeterminethewayofman’slifesosmallamatterinyoureyes——todeterminehowlifemaybepassedbyeachoneofustothegreatestadvantage？

AnddoIdifferfromyou，hesaid，astotheimportanceoftheenquiry？

Youappearrather，Ireplied，tohavenocareorthoughtaboutus，Thrasymachus——whetherwelivebetterorworsefromnotknowingwhatyousayyouknow，istoyouamatterofindifference。Prithee，friend，donotkeepyourknowledgetoyourself；wearealargeparty；andanybenefitwhichyouconferuponuswillbeamplyrewarded。FormyownpartIopenlydeclarethatIamnotconvinced，andthatIdonotbelieveinjusticetobemoregainfulthanjustice，evenifuncontrolledandallowedtohavefreeplay。For，grantingthattheremaybeanunjustmanwhoisabletocommitinjusticeeitherbyfraudorforce，stillthisdoesnotconvincemeofthesuperioradvantageofinjustice，andtheremaybeotherswhoareinthesamepredicamentwithmyself。Perhapswemaybewrong；ifso，youinyourwisdomshouldconvinceusthatwearemistakeninpreferringjusticetoinjustice。

AndhowamItoconvinceyou，hesaid，ifyouarenotalreadyconvincedbywhatIhavejustsaid；whatmorecanIdoforyou？

Wouldyouhavemeputtheproofbodilyintoyoursouls？

Heavenforbid！Isaid；Iwouldonlyaskyoutobeconsistent；or，ifyouchange，changeopenlyandlettherebenodeception。ForImustremark，Thrasymachus，ifyouwillrecallwhatwaspreviouslysaid，thatalthoughyoubeganbydefiningthetruephysicianinanexactsense，youdidnotobservealikeexactnesswhenspeakingoftheshepherd；youthoughtthattheshepherdasashepherdtendsthesheepnotwithaviewtotheirowngood，butlikeameredinerorbanqueterwithaviewtothepleasuresofthetable；or，again，asatraderforsaleinthemarket，andnotasashepherd。Yetsurelytheartoftheshepherdisconcernedonlywiththegoodofhissubjects；

hehasonlytoprovidethebestforthem，sincetheperfectionoftheartisalreadyensuredwheneveralltherequirementsofitaresatisfied。AndthatwaswhatIwassayingjustnowabouttheruler。

Iconceivedthattheartoftheruler，consideredasruler，whetherinastateorinprivatelife，couldonlyregardthegoodofhisflockorsubjects；whereasyouseemtothinkthattherulersinstates，thatistosay，thetruerulers，likebeinginauthority。

Think！Nay，Iamsureofit。

Thenwhyinthecaseoflesserofficesdomennevertakethemwillinglywithoutpayment，unlessundertheideathattheygovernfortheadvantagenotofthemselvesbutofothers？Letmeaskyouaquestion：Arenottheseveralartsdifferent，byreasonoftheireachhavingaseparatefunction？And，mydearillustriousfriend，dosaywhatyouthink，thatwemaymakealittleprogress。

Yes，thatisthedifference，hereplied。

Andeachartgivesusaparticulargoodandnotmerelyageneralone——medicine，forexample，givesushealth；navigation，safetyatsea，andsoon？

Yes，hesaid。

Andtheartofpaymenthasthespecialfunctionofgivingpay：butwedonotconfusethiswithotherarts，anymorethantheartofthepilotistobeconfusedwiththeartofmedicine，becausethehealthofthepilotmaybeimprovedbyaseavoyage。Youwouldnotbeinclinedtosay，wouldyou，thatnavigationistheartofmedicine，atleastifwearetoadoptyourexactuseoflanguage？

Certainlynot。

Orbecauseamanisingoodhealthwhenhereceivespayyouwouldnotsaythattheartofpaymentismedicine？

Ishouldsaynot。

Norwouldyousaythatmedicineistheartofreceivingpaybecauseamantakesfeeswhenheisengagedinhealing？

Certainlynot。

Andwehaveadmitted，Isaid，thatthegoodofeachartisspeciallyconfinedtotheart？

Yes。

Then，iftherebeanygoodwhichallartistshaveincommon，thatistobeattributedtosomethingofwhichtheyallhavethecommonuse？

True，hereplied。

Andwhentheartistisbenefitedbyreceivingpaytheadvantageisgainedbyanadditionaluseoftheartofpay，whichisnottheartprofessedbyhim？

Hegaveareluctantassenttothis。

Thenthepayisnotderivedbytheseveralartistsfromtheirrespectivearts。Butthetruthis，thatwhiletheartofmedicinegiveshealth，andtheartofthebuilderbuildsahouse，anotherartattendsthemwhichistheartofpay。Thevariousartsmaybedoingtheirownbusinessandbenefitingthatoverwhichtheypreside，butwouldtheartistreceiveanybenefitfromhisartunlesshewerepaidaswell？

Isupposenot。

Butdoeshethereforeconfernobenefitwhenheworksfornothing？

Certainly，heconfersabenefit。

Thennow，Thrasymachus，thereisnolongeranydoubtthatneitherartsnorgovernmentsprovidefortheirowninterests；but，aswewerebeforesaying，theyruleandprovidefortheinterestsoftheirsubjectswhoaretheweakerandnotthestronger——totheirgoodtheyattendandnottothegoodofthesuperior。

Andthisisthereason，mydearThrasymachus，why，asIwasjustnowsaying，nooneiswillingtogovern；becausenoonelikestotakeinhandthereformationofevilswhicharenothisconcernwithoutremuneration。For，intheexecutionofhiswork，andingivinghisorderstoanother，thetrueartistdoesnotregardhisowninterest，butalwaysthatofhissubjects；andthereforeinorderthatrulersmaybewillingtorule，theymustbepaidinoneofthreemodesofpayment：money，orhonour，orapenaltyforrefusing。

SOCRATES—GLAUCON

Whatdoyoumean，Socrates？saidGlaucon。Thefirsttwomodesofpaymentareintelligibleenough，butwhatthepenaltyisIdonotunderstand，orhowapenaltycanbeapayment。

Youmeanthatyoudonotunderstandthenatureofthispaymentwhichtothebestmenisthegreatinducementtorule？Ofcourseyouknowthatambitionandavariceareheldtobe，asindeedtheyare，adisgrace？

Verytrue。

Andforthisreason，Isaid，moneyandhonourhavenoattractionforthem；goodmendonotwishtobeopenlydemandingpaymentforgoverningandsotogetthenameofhirelings，norbysecretlyhelpingthemselvesoutofthepublicrevenuestogetthenameofthieves。

Andnotbeingambitioustheydonotcareabouthonour。Whereforenecessitymustbelaiduponthem，andtheymustbeinducedtoservefromthefearofpunishment。Andthis，asIimagine，isthereasonwhytheforwardnesstotakeoffice，insteadofwaitingtobecompelled，hasbeendeemeddishonourable。Nowtheworstpartofthepunishmentisthathewhorefusestoruleisliabletoberuledbyonewhoisworsethanhimself。Andthefearofthis，asIconceive，inducesthegoodtotakeoffice，notbecausetheywould，butbecausetheycannothelp——notundertheideathattheyaregoingtohaveanybenefitorenjoymentthemselves，butasanecessity，andbecausetheyarenotabletocommitthetaskofrulingtoanyonewhoisbetterthanthemselves，orindeedasgood。Forthereisreasontothinkthatifacitywerecomposedentirelyofgoodmen，thentoavoidofficewouldbeasmuchanobjectofcontentionastoobtainofficeisatpresent；thenweshouldhaveplainproofthatthetruerulerisnotmeantbynaturetoregardhisowninterest，butthatofhissubjects；andeveryonewhoknewthiswouldchooserathertoreceiveabenefitfromanotherthantohavethetroubleofconferringone。SofaramIfromagreeingwithThrasymachusthatjusticeistheinterestofthestronger。Thislatterquestionneednotbefurtherdiscussedatpresent；butwhenThrasymachussaysthatthelifeoftheunjustismoreadvantageousthanthatofthejust，hisnewstatementappearstometobeofafarmoreseriouscharacter。Whichofushasspokentruly？Andwhichsortoflife，Glaucon，doyouprefer？

Iformypartdeemthelifeofthejusttobethemoreadvantageous，heanswered。

DidyouhearalltheadvantagesoftheunjustwhichThrasymachuswasrehearsing？

Yes，Iheardhim，hereplied，buthehasnotconvincedme。

Thenshallwetrytofindsomewayofconvincinghim，ifwecan，thatheissayingwhatisnottrue？

Mostcertainly，hereplied。

If，Isaid，hemakesasetspeechandwemakeanotherrecountingalltheadvantagesofbeingjust，andheanswersandwerejoin，theremustbeanumberingandmeasuringofthegoodswhichareclaimedoneitherside，andintheendweshallwantjudgestodecide；butifweproceedinourenquiryaswelatelydid，bymakingadmissionstooneanother，weshallunitetheofficesofjudgeandadvocateinourownpersons。

Verygood，hesaid。

AndwhichmethoddoIunderstandyoutoprefer？Isaid。

Thatwhichyoupropose。

Well，then，Thrasymachus，Isaid，supposeyoubeginatthebeginningandanswerme。Yousaythatperfectinjusticeismoregainfulthanperfectjustice？

SOCRATES—GLAUCON—THRASYMACHUS

Yes，thatiswhatIsay，andIhavegivenyoumyreasons。

Andwhatisyourviewaboutthem？Wouldyoucalloneofthemvirtueandtheothervice？

Certainly。

Isupposethatyouwouldcalljusticevirtueandinjusticevice？

Whatacharmingnotion！Solikelytoo，seeingthatIaffirminjusticetobeprofitableandjusticenot。

Whatelsethenwouldyousay？

Theopposite，hereplied。

Andwouldyoucalljusticevice？

No，Iwouldrathersaysublimesimplicity。

Thenwouldyoucallinjusticemalignity？

No；Iwouldrathersaydiscretion。

Anddotheunjustappeartoyoutobewiseandgood？

Yes，hesaid；atanyratethoseofthemwhoareabletobeperfectlyunjust，andwhohavethepowerofsubduingstatesandnations；butperhapsyouimaginemetobetalkingofcutpurses。

Eventhisprofessionifundetectedhasadvantages，thoughtheyarenottobecomparedwiththoseofwhichIwasjustnowspeaking。

IdonotthinkthatImisapprehendyourmeaning，Thrasymachus，I

replied；butstillIcannothearwithoutamazementthatyouclassinjusticewithwisdomandvirtue，andjusticewiththeopposite。

CertainlyIdosoclassthem。

Now，Isaid，youareonmoresubstantialandalmostunanswerableground；foriftheinjusticewhichyouweremaintainingtobeprofitablehadbeenadmittedbyyouasbyotherstobeviceanddeformity，ananswermighthavebeengiventoyouonreceivedprinciples；butnowIperceivethatyouwillcallinjusticehonourableandstrong，andtotheunjustyouwillattributeallthequalitieswhichwereattributedbyusbeforetothejust，seeingthatyoudonothesitatetorankinjusticewithwisdomandvirtue。

Youhaveguessedmostinfallibly，hereplied。

ThenIcertainlyoughtnottoshrinkfromgoingthroughwiththeargumentsolongasIhavereasontothinkthatyou，Thrasymachus，arespeakingyourrealmind；forIdobelievethatyouarenowinearnestandarenotamusingyourselfatourexpense。

Imaybeinearnestornot，butwhatisthattoyou？——torefutetheargumentisyourbusiness。

Verytrue，Isaid；thatiswhatIhavetodo：Butwillyoubesogoodasansweryetonemorequestion？Doesthejustmantrytogainanyadvantageoverthejust？

Farotherwise；ifhedidwouldnotbethesimple，amusingcreaturewhichheis。

Andwouldhetrytogobeyondjustaction？

Hewouldnot。

Andhowwouldheregardtheattempttogainanadvantageovertheunjust；wouldthatbeconsideredbyhimasjustorunjust？

Hewouldthinkitjust，andwouldtrytogaintheadvantage；buthewouldnotbeable。

Whetherhewouldorwouldnotbeable，Isaid，isnottothepoint。Myquestionisonlywhetherthejustman，whilerefusingtohavemorethananotherjustman，wouldwishandclaimtohavemorethantheunjust？

Yes，hewould。

Andwhatoftheunjust——doesheclaimtohavemorethanthejustmanandtodomorethanisjustOfcourse，hesaid，forheclaimstohavemorethanallmen。

Andtheunjustmanwillstriveandstruggletoobtainmorethantheunjustmanoraction，inorderthathemayhavemorethanall？

True。

Wemayputthematterthus，Isaid——thejustdoesnotdesiremorethanhislikebutmorethanhisunlike，whereastheunjustdesiresmorethanbothhislikeandhisunlike？

Nothing，hesaid，canbebetterthanthatstatement。

Andtheunjustisgoodandwise，andthejustisneither？

Goodagain，hesaid。

Andisnottheunjustlikethewiseandgoodandthejustunlikethem？

Ofcourse，hesaid，hewhoisofacertainnature，islikethosewhoareofacertainnature；hewhoisnot，not。

Eachofthem，Isaid，issuchashislikeis？

Certainly，hereplied。

Verygood，Thrasymachus，Isaid；andnowtotakethecaseofthearts：youwouldadmitthatonemanisamusicianandanothernotamusician？

Yes。

Andwhichiswiseandwhichisfoolish？

Clearlythemusicianiswise，andhewhoisnotamusicianisfoolish。

Andheisgoodinasfarasheiswise，andbadinasfarasheisfoolish？

Yes。

Andyouwouldsaythesamesortofthingofthephysician？

Yes。

Anddoyouthink，myexcellentfriend，thatamusicianwhenheadjuststhelyrewoulddesireorclaimtoexceedorgobeyondamusicianinthetighteningandlooseningthestrings？

Idonotthinkthathewould。

Buthewouldclaimtoexceedthenon—musician？

Ofcourse。

Andwhatwouldyousayofthephysician？Inprescribingmeatsanddrinkswouldhewishtogobeyondanotherphysicianorbeyondthepracticeofmedicine？

Hewouldnot。

Buthewouldwishtogobeyondthenon—physician？

Yes。

Andaboutknowledgeandignoranceingeneral；seewhetheryouthinkthatanymanwhohasknowledgeeverwouldwishtohavethechoiceofsayingordoingmorethananothermanwhohasknowledge。

Wouldhenotrathersayordothesameashislikeinthesamecase？

That，Isuppose，canhardlybedenied。

Andwhatoftheignorant？wouldhenotdesiretohavemorethaneithertheknowingortheignorant？

Idaresay。

Andtheknowingiswise？

Yes。

Andthewiseisgood？

True。

Thenthewiseandgoodwillnotdesiretogainmorethanhislike，butmorethanhisunlikeandopposite？

Isupposeso。

Whereasthebadandignorantwilldesiretogainmorethanboth？

Yes。

Butdidwenotsay，Thrasymachus，thattheunjustgoesbeyondbothhislikeandunlike？Werenottheseyourwords？Theywere。

Theywere。

Andyoualsosaidthatthelustwillnotgobeyondhislikebuthisunlike？

Yes。

Thenthejustislikethewiseandgood，andtheunjustliketheevilandignorant？

Thatistheinference。

Andeachofthemissuchashislikeis？

Thatwasadmitted。

Thenthejusthasturnedouttobewiseandgoodandtheunjustevilandignorant。

Thrasymachusmadealltheseadmissions，notfluently，asIrepeatthem，butwithextremereluctance；itwasahotsummer’sday，andtheperspirationpouredfromhimintorrents；andthenIsawwhatI

hadneverseenbefore，Thrasymachusblushing。Aswewerenowagreedthatjusticewasvirtueandwisdom，andinjusticeviceandignorance，Iproceededtoanotherpoint：

Well，Isaid，Thrasymachus，thatmatterisnowsettled；butwerewenotalsosayingthatinjusticehadstrength；doyouremember？

Yes，Iremember，hesaid，butdonotsupposethatIapproveofwhatyouaresayingorhavenoanswer；ifhoweverIweretoanswer，youwouldbequitecertaintoaccusemeofharanguing；thereforeeitherpermitmetohavemysayout，orifyouwouldratherask，doso，andIwillanswer’Verygood，’astheysaytostory—tellingoldwomen，andwillnod’Yes’and’No。’

Certainlynot，Isaid，ifcontrarytoyourrealopinion。

Yes，hesaid，Iwill，topleaseyou，sinceyouwillnotletmespeak。Whatelsewouldyouhave？